MapTool 1.3 Bugfix Build 74

New build announcements plus site news and changes.

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LaserWolf
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Re: MapTool 1.3 Bugfix Build 74

Post by LaserWolf »

Yeah I thought that might've been the case. OK, so just the template issue then.

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LeopoldVonRanke
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Re: MapTool 1.3 Bugfix Build 74

Post by LeopoldVonRanke »

So, uh, can we expect semi-automated VBL drawing and map image export? That would be truly awesome, as both are something sorely needed!
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Re: MapTool 1.3 Bugfix Build 74

Post by brad »

LeopoldVonRanke wrote:So, uh, can we expect semi-automated VBL drawing and map image export? That would be truly awesome, as both are something sorely needed!
Search around the forum. Both have been talked about a lot. Both are at different stages of development and may or may not make it into 1.3. Az has an old patch that needs to be upgraded to deal with recent builds and tested, that may offer automated VBL when you drag out an image. Right now you can export a screen view, but I read about a contributor working on the ability to do a full map image export. Not sure how far along that is.
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Re: MapTool 1.3 Bugfix Build 74

Post by Crawford »

I thought map export was going to let us take a map and put it -- the graphics, tokens, VBL, etc. -- in a format that could be imported into another campaign. That would let people share maps, and let GMs keep their active campaign file to a reasonable size.

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Azhrei
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Re: MapTool 1.3 Bugfix Build 74

Post by Azhrei »

Yes, the terminology is going to need to be consolidated and cleaned up.

For example, campaigns are SAVED and maps are EXPORTED. That implies that they do different things, but they really don't. Campaigns are SAVED so they can be loaded in other instances of MapTool while maps are EXPORTED so that they can be loaded into other campaigns. Sounds like the same thing to me. :?

I think maps should be loaded/saved just as campaigns are. But importing a map implies bringing something into an existing workspace (i.e. campaign)...

This should probably be added to the new "bug tracker" that whited is working on -- "terminology for load/save/import/export operations".

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thecyberwolfe
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Re: MapTool 1.3 Bugfix Build 74

Post by thecyberwolfe »

Actually, the terminology used so far makes sense to me - if you are extricating pieces of data from the whole work in a format that allows you to merge it into another existing work or a new work, then that is an Export / Import operation, the same as when you pull a set of campaign props or macros out. "Saving" as a term however, has always been used to indicate writing the entire work to disk in every program I've ever used.

Also, it would be important I think to keep the process of saving a campaign as a singular menu action to avoid confusion. "I saved my map, but now everything else is gone!" and so forth.
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Re: MapTool 1.3 Bugfix Build 74

Post by wolph42 »

i fully agree with the cyberwolfe... (but then again I'm already a blasphemer) maps are to campaigns exactly the same as token are to campaigns. And as macros are to tokens.

Which now that I mention it makes me realise that tokens are saved... and imported (dragged) to a map. While macros are imported and exported to a token (or campaign or global) panel.
MT properties are again exported and imported...

So a bit of clean up is necessary I would suggest
Campaign files --> Save Load
The rest --> Import Export
The rest being:
Maps, (lib:)tokens, macros and properties
Am I missing something?

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CoveredInFish
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Re: MapTool 1.3 Bugfix Build 74

Post by CoveredInFish »

We might need (depending if the patch makes it to an official build) a term referring to "saving a screenshot" and "dumping the complete map into an image file".

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Azhrei
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Re: MapTool 1.3 Bugfix Build 74

Post by Azhrei »

CoveredInFish wrote:We might need (depending if the patch makes it to an official build) a term referring to "saving a screenshot" and "dumping the complete map into an image file".
Yes, this is the one that is the issue at hand. In many graphics applications, saving the image stores it in an internal-only format that can't be used anywhere else, and exporting it (as JPEG, PNG, whatever) allows it to be used outside that application (hence "export"). Yet that's not what MapTool does with it. And it can be argued (rather successfully) that MapTool is essentially a graphics application. It has other features (networking, macros, etc) but without its graphics it wouldn't be useful -- yet it would be useful without those other things, although perhaps not as useful.

Anyway, I'll let the rest of the community decide how they want these things named and I'll chime back in again early next week. 8)

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jfrazierjr
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Re: MapTool 1.3 Bugfix Build 74

Post by jfrazierjr »

Export Map->
-----MTMap Format
-----JPEG

As menu items and sub items.
I save all my Campaign Files to DropBox. Not only can I access a campaign file from pretty much any OS that will run Maptool(Win,OSX, linux), but each file is versioned, so if something goes crazy wild, I can always roll back to a previous version of the same file.

Get your Dropbox 2GB via my referral link, and as a bonus, I get an extra 250 MB of space. Even if you don't don't use my link, I still enthusiastically recommend Dropbox..

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LeopoldVonRanke
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Re: MapTool 1.3 Bugfix Build 74

Post by LeopoldVonRanke »

CoveredInFish wrote:We might need (depending if the patch makes it to an official build) a term referring to "saving a screenshot" and "dumping the complete map into an image file".
Indeed! Well put.
Importing/Exporting always refers to data transferral into and out of existing data context; Saving always merely means the securing of data within the current context. Sometimes these can be the same, but the designations are intuitively understood, I believe.
Furthermore, after using MapTool for more than an hour you also get to understand that all map references usually refer to the currently used map within the campaign, i.e. the one that is shown, and not the others that do exist but are currently invisible.
May I therefore officially suggest:

Saving the Campaign itself, as expected = "Save Campaign"
Saving the Map Data for Re-Import into other Campaigns = "Export Map" (immediately clear, I think), and, respectively,
Loading Map Data into a Campaign = "Import Map"
Saving the entire Map as Image file for usage elsewhere = "Save Map as Image"

Note that what we call a "screenshot" so far really isn't a shot of the screen - it is merely a cut of the map at a particular (the current) zoom.
Saving a screenshot = "Save Current Map View as Image"
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Re: MapTool 1.3 Bugfix Build 74

Post by aku »

I think i would agree with Leo, and disagree with wolph's assessment, based on the thought that import/export bring/send files to other programs. So you would save token/macros/campaigns/maps*

Maps is where it gets tricky, imo, because it is a divided set of people. some will only want to save a map to use from one campaign to the next, others want to be able to use it as a printed map for f2f gaming, and these are two distinct needs. So you will, in essence, need to be able to SAVE a map, for use within maptool (just in another "file" e.x. campaign, the other, you'll need to EXPORT the requested map for use within another program, or for print, should MT ever include a print function (i would disagree if it's needed, with the export to a jpeg or other image format, there are plenty of image programs that include print functionality)

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Re: MapTool 1.3 Bugfix Build 74

Post by Geneocide »

I don't really know what to call things, I think you guys will figure out what's best. I just want to chime in for thorough hover text. No matter how you label things the labels can always be made more clear with some longer form hover text for newbies and the unsure. Even if you label things consistently and with perfect logic, people aren't going to know you did that the first time they use the functions.

Below are some examples of the general idea. Obviously if that's not what Export Map is going to mean then it shouldn't say exactly that. :)

Same Campaign -> Save entire contents of campaign to .cmpgn file to be opened with maptools
Save Token -> Save selected token to file to be opened in this or other campaigns
Export Map -> Save selected drawn map (no tokens, objects, etc) to file to be opened in this or other campaigns

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wolph42
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Re: MapTool 1.3 Bugfix Build 74

Post by wolph42 »

aku wrote:I think i would agree with Leo, and disagree with wolph's assessment, based on the thought that import/export bring/send files to other programs. So you would save token/macros/campaigns/maps*

Maps is where it gets tricky, imo, because it is a divided set of people. some will only want to save a map to use from one campaign to the next, others want to be able to use it as a printed map for f2f gaming, and these are two distinct needs. So you will, in essence, need to be able to SAVE a map, for use within maptool (just in another "file" e.x. campaign, the other, you'll need to EXPORT the requested map for use within another program, or for print, should MT ever include a print function (i would disagree if it's needed, with the export to a jpeg or other image format, there are plenty of image programs that include print functionality)
Hmm you are limiting the word export solely for file type conversion, while it isn't. E.g. 'export to another file format' is the same as 'save to another file format' so that distinction is void.

The vital difference between save and export is better seen with its counterpart: import and load:
- You CANNOT import a campaign file into a campaign file
- You CAN import a token, macro, map, etc. into a campaign file
And the opposite of save is load and the opposite of import is export. Hence my suggestion.

All in all though, why doesn't someone start an poll on this matter and get it solved.

@geneocide: good point! that is the least that should be done.

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Re: MapTool 1.3 Bugfix Build 74

Post by aliasmask »

I think saving a map without tokens or objects would be useless because the only thing left is the drawn terrain. Now if there was a checklist when saving a map then that would add some versatility. Then you can decide to add background, object, hidden and token layer tokens with your export.

What I would really love to have is an export/import that separated the states, bars, lights, sights and token properties allowing for merging rather than overwriting. When importing, the user will just specify to overwrite duplicates or not to overwrite.

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