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Great Wyrm
 
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 Post subject: Re: Documentation Wiki - Idea
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:29 am 
Rumble wrote:
My recommendation - no autocalculated properties on the token unless we don't display anything in the statsheet. MapTool seems to wedge itself easily with a setup of displayed properties that are based on other properties.


I am starting the set up now and should hopefully have something before the weekend. I am not sure if I will include any autocalc properties, but if I do I will ensure that there is a default for all values they rely on so that problem wont occur (not sure if there will or wont be autocalc though)


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 Post subject: Re: Documentation Wiki - Idea
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:58 am 
Craig wrote:
Rumble wrote:
My recommendation - no autocalculated properties on the token unless we don't display anything in the statsheet. MapTool seems to wedge itself easily with a setup of displayed properties that are based on other properties.


I am starting the set up now and should hopefully have something before the weekend. I am not sure if I will include any autocalc properties, but if I do I will ensure that there is a default for all values they rely on so that problem wont occur (not sure if there will or wont be autocalc though)



Even with default values, MapTool jams up for a bit (if you don't put in defaults, it jams in an endless "Enter values for ___" dialog loop; if you do include defaults, it presents a raft of the same dialog, but will relinquish its hold if you hit enter enough times).

For example, these properties result in endless-loop-city:

Code:
*Str
*Dex
*Int
*End
*HP:{3*End}
*Move:{Dex}


While these result in the "hit Enter until it gives up" flaw:

Code:
*Str:0
*Dex:0
*Int:0
*End:0
*HP:{3*End}
*Move:{Dex}


Edited to add: I actually have a base campaign setup for Phergus' system already (I was using it to experiment with the JSON stuff). Do you want it? I'm happy to pass it on (basically, it just has the properties configured and a couple "screwing around with JSON" macros). If you don't need it, no big deal.

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MapTool Tutorials:
Introduction to Tokens
Introduction to Properties
Introduction to Macro Writing
Introduction to Light and Sight


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 Post subject: Re: Documentation Wiki - Idea
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:49 am 
For the purposes of a demo campaign, I think that not having derived attributes auto-calculated would be good. Especially so giving the problems Rumble is reporting.

One thought about that however is that a Campaign macro could be created that would populate each character's derived attributes. Would only do this if it would serve to demonstrate some macro functionality that isn't covered somewhere else.

Otherwise just throw in the characters with the stats already calculated and in place.

As far as the rules go, do feel free to throw out anything that doesn't serve the underlaying purpose or that might actually make things confusing. A number of Powers were given special effects just for the purpose of demonstrating macro functionality and states but if any of them create problems just remove the effect or change it. Definitely change the rules in whatever way makes sense for actual goal here.

@Rumble - would love to see your campaign & macros

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 Post subject: Re: Documentation Wiki - Idea
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:08 am 
Phergus wrote:
For the purposes of a demo campaign, I think that not having derived attributes auto-calculated would be good. Especially so giving the problems Rumble is reporting.

One thought about that however is that a Campaign macro could be created that would populate each character's derived attributes. Would only do this if it would serve to demonstrate some macro functionality that isn't covered somewhere else.

Otherwise just throw in the characters with the stats already calculated and in place.

As far as the rules go, do feel free to throw out anything that doesn't serve the underlaying purpose or that might actually make things confusing. A number of Powers were given special effects just for the purpose of demonstrating macro functionality and states but if any of them create problems just remove the effect or change it. Definitely change the rules in whatever way makes sense for actual goal here.

@Rumble - would love to see your campaign & macros


No prob. Hang on a sec here...

Okay. You can download it at:

http://www.houseofgenius.com/files/camp ... mple.cmpgn

It's very minimal - the only thing I have so far is a rudimentary "Add Power" macro, a "Setup Character" macro, and a macro that displays power information to the chat window. As I said, it was mostly to get a handle on how to assemble and use JSONs.

What I would do for a more polished version is to create a Lib:token with a list of all powers (stored as a JSON) and when a player wants to add a power, they select one from the list, see the power info, and get to say "yes, add this power" or "no, go back". If they confirm, a button is created to trigger that power (either via a macro call or just embedding the macro details in the button).

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MapTool Tutorials:
Introduction to Tokens
Introduction to Properties
Introduction to Macro Writing
Introduction to Light and Sight


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 Post subject: Re: Documentation Wiki - Idea
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:47 am 
Nifty. Thanks!

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Great Wyrm
 
Joined: Sun Jun 22, 2008 6:53 pm
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 Post subject: Re: Documentation Wiki - Idea
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:52 am 
Here is my current thought on properties

*@#Strength
*@#Dexterity
*@#Intelligence
*@#Endurance
*HitPoints (Hit Points)
*MaxHitPoints (Max Hit Points)
*@#Armor
*@#Movement
*Class
AttackPowers
OtherPowers
*@#ActivePower (Active Power)
ActivePowerRound

Its close to Rumble's.
ActivePower is just used to keep track of the non attack power for this round since not all of them will have token states (like light for example).
ActivePowerRound is used to keep track of the initiative round that the power was used so the macro can tell if a power has already been used this round. This will require some sort of StartCombat campaign macro.

Any thoughts on the above?


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 Post subject: Re: Documentation Wiki - Idea
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:19 pm 
Craig wrote:
Here is my current thought on properties

*@#Strength
*@#Dexterity
*@#Intelligence
*@#Endurance
*HitPoints (Hit Points)
*MaxHitPoints (Max Hit Points)
*@#Armor
*@#Movement
*Class
AttackPowers
OtherPowers
*@#ActivePower (Active Power)
ActivePowerRound

Its close to Rumble's.
ActivePower is just used to keep track of the non attack power for this round since not all of them will have token states (like light for example).
ActivePowerRound is used to keep track of the initiative round that the power was used so the macro can tell if a power has already been used this round. This will require some sort of StartCombat campaign macro.

Any thoughts on the above?


Looks good to me.

For the non-Attack powers, a generic state (like state.OtherPowerActive) could be set when such a power is activated. Then you can use that state's value as the check to make sure one power is deactivated before the other is activated.

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MapTool Tutorials:
Introduction to Tokens
Introduction to Properties
Introduction to Macro Writing
Introduction to Light and Sight


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 Post subject: Re: Documentation Wiki - Idea
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:37 pm 
Looks good to me also.

I meant to post this early but here is the thinking behind the Powers and special effects.

The following powers had Special Effects that I imagined would be enabled by macros by the GM.

Banish Undead - Enraged state
Bite II - Infected state
Chilling Touch - Chilled state
Curse - Pain state
Shield Bash - Stunned state

But that may be more complicated than is truly necessary. And state graphics have to be found/created.

Also supporting multiple states (e.g. Infected & Chilled) at the same time is probably more than needed. If only one negative effect at a time was allowed that would probably be sufficient.

My thought on the Other Powers was that Hide, Light, Protect, Shield & Torch would all have states so that it would be visibly clear that the character had an Active Power and what it was. So if the Rogue turns on Torch, he loses Hide. My thought would be that all of these states would occupy the same position (e.g. lower left corner).

Not sure what purpose the Pick Lock power is going to serve it just seemed like it should be there. :) I suppose a chest could be placed on the map in one of the encounter areas and the Rogue could attempt to open it even during combat thus losing his Hide ability.

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 Post subject: Re: Documentation Wiki - Idea
PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 9:05 pm 
Phergus wrote:
No real attempt made at balance or internal logic so it should be crunched or playtested before use.


Indeed. A major flaw with it as written - the rats literally cannot hit anyone. 1d6+1 Str = 7<9. Not counting the -1 for Bite. Zombie claws are the same way with their -2.

The obvious solution here is to change it to 2d6 and the target to 10. Or 11, depends on the distributions. This allows the rats a (miniscule) chance to hit, and bell curves are sexy.

Also, the rogue has 15 stat points and Int is a dump stat for non-casters.
I'll do some 2d6 distributions later.


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 Post subject: Re: Documentation Wiki - Idea
PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 11:25 pm 
Good catch. I originally had it as opposed rolls of (stat)d6 vs (stat)d6 with modifiers but got rid of it because the goal was simplicity.

Yeah I recognized that Int was a dump stat with the rules as written and that came about from the same simplification. Originally physical attacks were ST vs DX, ranged were DX vs IN and magic was IN vs EN. So that all stats were important in some way to everybody.

I also figured that in a real system there would be powers that Warriors/Rogues/Priests might have that did use IN. Examples being Spot Hidden, Detect Traps, Detect Weakness (in an opponents defense), and so on.

Changing the roll to 2d6 would at the least allow the lowly rats a chance to hit. Though the target number would probably need to be 11 so that it isn't quite an auto-hit for the fighter. Hmmm.

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 Post subject: Re: Documentation Wiki - Idea
PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 12:51 am 
Did a little number crunching on 2d6 and 3d6 but wasn't real thrilled with the way it worked out. So I went to 1d10 and 2d10. The 2d10 results seem pretty good to me.

Code:
Attacks vs Target of 9 (1d10 + ST + Attack Bonus)
9       -2      -1      0       1       2       3       4
1       10%     20%     30%     40%     50%     60%     70%
2       20%     30%     40%     50%     60%     70%     80%
3       30%     40%     50%     60%     70%     80%     90%
4       40%     50%     60%     70%     80%     90%     100%
5       50%     60%     70%     80%     90%     100%    100%
6       60%     70%     80%     90%     100%    100%    100%

Attacks vs Target of 15 (2d10 + ST + Attack Bonus)
15      -2      -1      0       1       2       3       4
1       15%     21%     28%     36%     45%     55%     64%
2       21%     28%     36%     45%     55%     64%     72%
3       28%     36%     45%     55%     64%     72%     79%
4       36%     45%     55%     64%     72%     79%     85%
5       45%     55%     64%     72%     79%     85%     90%
6       55%     64%     72%     79%     85%     90%     94%

Attacks vs Target of 11 (2d6 + ST + Attack Bonus)
11      -2      -1      0       1       2       3       4
1       2.8%    8.3%    16.7%   27.8%   41.7%   58.3%   72.2%
2       8.3%    16.7%   27.8%   41.7%   58.3%   72.2%   83.3%
3       16.7%   27.8%   41.7%   58.3%   72.2%   83.3%   91.7%
4       27.8%   41.7%   58.3%   72.2%   83.3%   91.7%   97.2%
5       41.7%   58.3%   72.2%   83.3%   91.7%   97.2%   100.0%
6       58.3%   72.2%   83.3%   91.7%   97.2%   100.0%  100.0%

Attacks vs Target of 15 (3d6 + ST + Attack Bonus)
15      -2      -1      0       1       2       3       4
1       4.6%    9.3%    16.2%   25.9%   37.5%   50.0%   62.5%
2       9.3%    16.2%   25.9%   37.5%   50.0%   62.5%   74.1%
3       16.2%   25.9%   37.5%   50.0%   62.5%   74.1%   83.8%
4       25.9%   37.5%   50.0%   62.5%   74.1%   83.8%   90.7%
5       37.5%   50.0%   62.5%   74.1%   83.8%   90.7%   95.4%
6       50.0%   62.5%   74.1%   83.8%   90.7%   95.4%   98.1%


If anybody wants the OpenOffice spreadsheet for this give a shout.

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 Post subject: Re: Documentation Wiki - Idea
PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 1:20 am 
Nice work. I do like the overall distribution on 2d10... but I worry about how easy it is for Sixers to hit.

I'd say cap bonuses at +2, make bonuses rare and change the target to 16.

I'd remove attack bonuses from powers entirely, having everything on a +0 basis.

I'd then move things to
Equipment
Special Attack
Skill

Have a bit of equipment with effects. I'd give the dagger +1 to hit and -1 damage, leave the sword and mace equal to each other, add a few other options like 2 hand axe for -1 hit and +3 damage.

Then everyone gets 2 pieces of equipment, one special attack and a non-combat skill. Plus a "free choice" being more equipment, an extra attack, or skill.

So Rogue takes
Dagger (Equipment)
Torch (Equipment)
Backstab (Special Attack)
Hide (Skill)
Pick Locks (Extra Choice)

Fighter takes
Sword (Equipment)
Shield (Equipment)
Shield Bash (Special Attack)
Protect (Skill) [Full Defense]
Torch (Extra)

These match your basics, but with some extra equipment and a couple powers, you can give players lots of choices.

Rogues can get Crippling Strike, Bypass (3.5 Tumble) or Dodge
Fighters can get Mighty Blow (*ahemPowerAttackahem*), Knockdown, Disarm, Stunning Blow
Wizards can choose from a variety of spells

And one way to make Int not a complete dump stat is to make some "mental" powers that bypass armor... instead your INT is your armor rating. These could be mind blasts, roguish Piercing Strike, or a fighter's Stunning Blow (the helmet is nice, but how are your brains holding up to that hit?)


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 Post subject: Re: Documentation Wiki - Idea
PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 11:09 am 
If I was going to make it a real RPG then I would do something more like you're suggesting. My goal here was more towards a simplistic, one-sheet set of rules for a beer & pretzels kind of RPG. Closer to a RPG-flavored board game than a true RPG. (And we already have one dissenting vote that it is too complex.).

Just enough mechanics to demonstrate a fair range of macro functionality that could also be re-interpreted out into other rule systems.

Another reason behind keeping it really simple was that didn't really want anyone to have to actually learn the rules so much as just be able to look at a macro and see that it did what the one sentence description of making an attack said it should be done.

Which is not to say that a more complex variation couldn't also be done to demonstrate that the users could go a basic macro setup and a more advanced macro setup for the same rule system.

In any case, played with the numbers a bit more and I think that going with the ubiquitous d20 roll for attacks and keeping the mods as they are allows for a nice spread even though we lose the sexy bell curve. Rats get a little tougher and the Sixers aren't so uber.

Code:
Attacks vs Target of 16 (1d20 + ST + Attack Bonus)
16      -2      -1      0       1       2       3       4
1       25%     30%     35%     40%     45%     50%     55%
2       30%     35%     40%     45%     50%     55%     60%
3       35%     40%     45%     50%     55%     60%     65%
4       40%     45%     50%     55%     60%     65%     70%
5       45%     50%     55%     60%     65%     70%     75%
6       50%     55%     60%     65%     70%     75%     80%

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 Post subject: Re: Documentation Wiki - Idea
PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 3:53 pm 
Not sure if this is the best place for the Macro Developers to see this, but I would love to see the Wiki have each entry show the version the function began working correctly in. Really, this can go back around 4 months or so and be useful.

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 Post subject: Re: Documentation Wiki - Idea
PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 9:45 pm 
jfrazierjr wrote:
Not sure if this is the best place for the Macro Developers to see this, but I would love to see the Wiki have each entry show the version the function began working correctly in. Really, this can go back around 4 months or so and be useful.


I have started with b48 and marked differences for b49, and will do same for b50 and so on. While going back would be nice it is just so much work to do, by all means if there are people who want to do it they should feel free, but I don't think I will get around to it as it will mean I have no time to create any other additions :)


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