Decent into Dallas Station: Session 1

[dorpond]

That's an interesting concept Snikle. I would hope for the ability to hold/delay/ready a character though and maybe have the ability to move that initiative where we want it. I personally would perfer something like that ti be in the top left card corner and extend downward. For some reason I like initiative going up and down instead.

Nice artword btw!

While I am posting, I also wanted to bring up another wish item you brought up during game Snikle - a way to keep track of ammo.

[snikle]

Here is a rework, I made the token slots much smaller in response to Bleeds comment, I think this way you could easily get 12 or more tokens on there. I also added the round tracker, auto sort button to automatically sort the token in accordance with the init number or the cards, and a auto track button.

First of all, I'd like to have the option to see the Init list all the time.

I personally hate the docking windows, I feel like I am playing a computer game rather than a gaming at a tabletop. That is the reason I went this route. During a game I usually try to close all my windows except my chat and occasionally the image browser (which actually I would like to a draw added for common GM tokens such as templates, GMs could drag token, images, effects into this drawer for quick grabbing in the middle of the game instead of searching through 500+ tokens that I have).

1) A round counter.

Added to the bottom of the drawer now.

2) The ability to drag multiple tokens into the Init box at once.

I assumed that grabbing more than one token on the map and dragging them to the drawer would auto-populate the drawer, or perhaps tokens could be grouped that way. Drag all your mummies onto the drawer and it creates a single slot called Mummy Group.

3) A highlight on the active token.

The active slot is indicated by the triangular shaped pointer on the top, and also the currently active token would flash or glow on the map.

4) The ability to quickly and easily move tokens up and down the list.

I thought drag and drop from one slot to another was darned easy myself. There a better way?

Give me a way to let players designate their inits with a die roll command (i.e. /roll init d20+2)

I think that is a great idea, enter that code and it auto fills in the number slot for whichever personality you are impersonating. That would be outstanding.

One thing to remember, I am not the developer of MT, and I don't even know if something like this is possible, I just figure making an image showing how it would work is easier than trying to describe how I see it. And heck, any chance I get to help make MT better.....I am all for that.

Dorpond, a vertical one came up in a discussion I had when I showed this to another person. I plan on making a vertical one as well, just to see which seems to work better. I definitely agree that a vertical one more clearly shows who would go first in a round.

[snikle]

Dorpond, here is a vertical version. Only real problem I have with it is that vertically there is not as much room as horizontally (why oh why didn't I know this????? screens aren't square?!?! who knew!), so the number of token slots would be less.
One thing I do really like, was I moved the advance button to the drawer's edge, so GMs could control the turns without opening the entire thing.

[Full Bleed]

Ok... I'm starting to warm up to the possibilities of this with a few more edits that come to mind. Like I said, it does look pretty. Making it smaller made a big difference.

I'm still not totally sold on the drawer concept but we might be able to fix all (or most) of my main concerns with it.

1) I don't like having to open and close the drawer to see some information. So, put more useful information on the tab to address this. For example, instead of "INITIATIVE" have a smaller version of the next 5-7 tokens on the bar with the one that's "up" centered and highlighted. Maybe with their name underneath.

2) Use a single button to open and close the drawer (to save space for something else like a round display.)

3) Allow it to be set to vertical or horizontal. I think I might use horizontal. Build in a scrolling capability (small scroll-bar?) so you have have a nearly infinite amount of slots.

4) And here is a big one... allow it to be put on a second monitor. One of the big benefits of dockable windows is that I can run full-screen on one window and move all my tools to the other. A would not seem to allow this.


Now, keep in mind, that I'm starting to really like this idea and implementation. BUT it appears to be far more complicated than using the simple dockable window concept I mentioned earlier. I'm somewhat hesitant to get too excited about something like this because the more ambitious something like this is, the more likely it seems that it'll get a "good idea" mark of approval, but won't see the light of day anytime soon. A simpler model might get functionality into our hands sooner, without pushing back some of the other uber features in Trevor's huge todo list.

[Full Bleed]

Btw, we might want this panel discussion split into its own thread in the MT subforum. Might get more input.

[Hawke]

The more I think about it, the less I like the drawer aspect of the idea. I much prefer keeping it with the same UI pattern we've established. If there sometime was an overall UI redesign, I'd definitely be up for looking at the drawer action.

All I really want is something like this:



So players can see that same information. The GM could see hidden examples, etc... but order and who's turn it is is all that needs to be transmitted mostly.

[GoOrange]

Yes - I like Hawke's mock up very much!

[dorpond]

A couple comments come to mind Snikle:

1. I LOVE the look or your initiative idea, but..
2. It is not rules agnostic enough or modifiable by the community.
3. I doesn't have the room or space to accomidate the many different rule systems out there. Heck, how would us D&D players use it? There is no ready or dealy function and even if there were, how would it do it graphically?
4. Jay has spent a ton of time working on an initiative tracker so I am uncertain if going your route is the right choice. I think having the ability to open InitTool and then dragging/linking it to Maptool to appear like Hawkes would be better - this way it is actually using Jay's InitTool engine but have have its own view in Maptool. It just seems like making another initiative tracker is couter productive - Jay is on it and is very dedicated.

So Jay, is there a way we can have a window of some sort that is linked with InitTool? One where we don't have to flip back and forth between InitTool and can do things driectly within Maptool? I think that is the real problem here - people don't want to flip back and forth between applications. It would be much better if we could just minimize InitTool and control it within Maptool. For more advanced features, we could then flip open InitTool when needed. To make this idea even better, maybe we could have the ability to assign what parts of InitTool we want displayed in Maptool? Maybe that isn't needed. I know with D&D, I would need to have a delay/ready option but in Savage Worlds, they would not.

Thoughts?

[jay]

Hawke's mockup or something very much like it is the current plan for integration of Init Tool and Map Tool. The biggest thing that we are waiting on is the new networking support for Map Tool. Then I can add that support to Init Tool and link the two apps. You won't have full IT functionality in MT but you will have the most common support; initiative list, next initiative, wait states, drag & drop etc.

[snikle]

1. I LOVE the look or your initiative idea, but..

Thanks.

2. It is not rules agnostic enough or modifiable by the community.

Actually it supports numbers and cards, in so far that is supporting all the initiative systems that I know. I wasn't talking about all the coding jargon, modifiers, and situational stuff that is built into complex systems. Use whatever method to determine the numbers or cards you want, draw M&Ms if that floats your boat (don't laugh, seen it done once), then simply enter the result of all those calculations. This was just a means for the GM to show who went when, similar to Hawke's mock-up that shows who is next in line to act.

3. I doesn't have the room or space to accommodate the many different rule systems out there. Heck, how would us D&D players use it? There is no ready or delay function and even if there were, how would it do it graphically?

I assumed that the GM would be able to move the token to another slot, so if a player stated he was holding his turn, then the GM could simply move the next player up. I think there could easily be an option added to show ready or hold, perhaps color coding it. Not familiar enough with D&D rules to understand what is needed exactly.
<initiate_flame_war>Devil's advocate here, but you mention it needing to be rules agnostic, then repeatedly mention it needs to support D&D. What are we striving for here, rules agnostic, or supporting D&D? </initiate_flame_war>

I know with D&D, I would need to have a delay/ready option but in Savage Worlds, they would not.

Actually in Savage worlds there is a hold option, very similar to the delay if I am not mistaken. Again, the GM could simply drag the token to the appropriate slot.

I know the OpenRPG people love all the tables and trees, but many people I show MT to dislike all that and prefer systems like BG and FG. Granted that is eye-candy, but if you have a choice between functioning eye-candy and simple trees and tables.....well, maybe we are just different breeds.
Anyway, to each his own, and like I said, I don't even know if this could be accomplished.

[dorpond]

<initiate_flame_war>Devil's advocate here, but you mention it needing to be rules agnostic, then repeatedly mention it needs to support D&D. What are we striving for here, rules agnostic, or supporting D&D? </initiate_flame_war>

LOL

All I was getting at is that with your current mock-up, I didn't even have the options needed to play one of the most popular gaming system. If it doesn't have the ability to play D&D, then it isn't rules agnostic enough.

You are correct though, we could just drag the token to the new initiative - that could work, but your comment about the GM remembering who is readied and such wouldn't work when many people in the group ready/delay. Maybe in your mockup we could have the ability to right click on the players and have those states available and when selected, would have a HOLD/READY overlay on them.

But I am still keen at the idea of getting together with Jay on this Snikle and working out the SW rules with him so that he can make it tight there first. Then once Jay has SW stuff working great, we will hopefully have the networking stuff done so that we can bridge the two apps together. Jay is a coding machine! A bit quieter than Trevor but he is always there banging away at code all the time and is very dedicated to the initiative initiative

[RPMiller]

If you want to make IT ready for any system out there, make it able to handle HERO System initiative. I guarantee that if it can do that, it can do any system out there. HERO has three elements to its initiative, SPD, DEX, and Phase. Interestingly enough it is actually very simple to use and lends itself very nicely to Superhero level combats where you have Flash fighting fighting against a bunch of thugs, as an example. If IT can handle the complexities of HERO it will have no problem handling any other system out there.

Just my 2 cp.

[dLANbandit]

Hero is the most complex implementation I have seen. But I also found it the most complete to use. Automation of Hero would actually make me want to play that system again.

[Full Bleed]

All I was getting at is that with your current mock-up, I didn't even have the options needed to play one of the most popular gaming system. If it doesn't have the ability to play D&D, then it isn't rules agnostic enough.

You are correct though, we could just drag the token to the new initiative - that could work, but your comment about the GM remembering who is readied and such wouldn't work when many people in the group ready/delay. Maybe in your mockup we could have the ability to right click on the players and have those states available and when selected, would have a HOLD/READY overlay on them.

In Snikle's defense... I think the original idea has been pulled off the tracks.

I don't think the purpose of the mini-init window was to handle initiative on a system mechanic level at all. The purpose, as I understood it and proposed, was simply to have a fairly basic order listing.

Init tool is/will/can handle the detailed initiative mechanics. The mini-init window should not be perceived as a replacement for Init Tool, just a bare-bones front-end, with some very basic functionality: An ordering of tokens, a round counter, and initiative ID (number, card, or whatever.) Anything else goes deeper into system mechanics (like readying and holding, etc.)

Until Init Tool can claim to be able to handle every initiative system out there, is fully integrated, and everyone really wants to use it... this mini-init window idea should be considered bare-bones functionality within MT. You may even note from my initial posts that I mentioned that *if* Init Tool was running it would interact with the mini-init window... otherwise the mini-init window really isn't being proposed to do much other than help manually keep track of tokens and rounds.

I think the expectation that there will ever be some way to handle every init system through a little window or drawer is a little off base. I think that, after all, is where Jay and Init Tool come into play.

[dorpond]

All I was getting at is that with your current mock-up, I didn't even have the options needed to play one of the most popular gaming system. If it doesn't have the ability to play D&D, then it isn't rules agnostic enough.

You are correct though, we could just drag the token to the new initiative - that could work, but your comment about the GM remembering who is readied and such wouldn't work when many people in the group ready/delay. Maybe in your mockup we could have the ability to right click on the players and have those states available and when selected, would have a HOLD/READY overlay on them.

In Snikle's defense... I think the original idea has been pulled off the tracks.

That's probably the case - I have a bad habit of doing that!

I love Snikles ideas and especially his way of making it look pretty in Maptool. I just worry that we would have two different people working on two different initiatives systems and two different community types requesting features for both initiatives. It just seemed counter productive to me. My bad if I rained on the parade - you guys continue on with this great discussion - the opinion of one means nothing compared to the opinions of the many.