New CharSheet Tool?

[ryffreturns]

There's no forum under the Character Tool heading for general discussion; they're all for specific support of certain systems...so I posted here.

I was wondering why the developers here didn't go for a flexible build-it-yourself kind of Charsheet toolbox. They have easily surpassed WebRPG and OpenRPG in so many other areas, I am surprised that the character sheets must be rigidly and programmatically defined. OpenRPG, in particular, has an interesting build-your-own charsheet functionality.

Is there an impasse imposed by the ap's architecture?

[jay]

I've never used either of those tools. What are they doing that makes them better? Maybe I can integrate it into CT.

CT's & IT's character sheets are fairly flexible, but you have to define them using a separate tool and then import them into the game settings file. I've been working on the editor for game settings files lately and eventually I want to add a character sheet editor into that. But, that would be a lot of work. And, no matter how much work I put into it, it would never be as flexible as the Java tools that already exist for creating Swing panels. Right now you have to use Abeille to build the panels, but in the next release you will be able to use any program that can generate a Java source or class file.

[aku]

I've never used either of those tools. What are they doing that makes them better? Maybe I can integrate it into CT.

CT's & IT's character sheets are fairly flexible, but you have to define them using a separate tool and then import them into the game settings file. I've been working on the editor for game settings files lately and eventually I want to add a character sheet editor into that. But, that would be a lot of work. And, no matter how much work I put into it, it would never be as flexible as the Java tools that already exist for creating Swing panels. Right now you have to use Abeille to build the panels, but in the next release you will be able to use any program that can generate a Java source or class file.

I'm not going to post this as gospel, because it's been a long time since i've looked at open rpg, but if i remember correctly, the setup basically was very system agnostic, but also very generic. i dont remember any sort "fluff" design to the sheets, i think they looked a lot like the basic token macros do in maptool if i remember correctly, which is what it sounds like the op is talking about. something that just "works" for all sorts of systems out of the box.

[ryffreturns]

I've never used either of those tools. What are they doing that makes them better? Maybe I can integrate it into CT.

OpenRPG's interface had, as one of its main windows (besides the map, chat, player roster) a "gametree" (tree tool). One node of the tree had subnodes that were templates for form elements (text entry, button, drop down box, tab, folder) and by dragging and dropping them (copy operation) outside of the "templates" node, you could build forms (i.e. charsheet). The layout of the form was pretty static. You could specify fixed height and width, but all subordinate elements were "flowed" in the order they were stacked in the gametree. No direct control over positionng. (There were other kinds of nodes, too, besides form elements: some could also hold pics and "minis" related to the map and other stuff.)

OpenRPG was largely gametree-centric where MapTool is (duh) map-centric.

The gametree as it was implemented was deficient (underlying Python code transformed everything in and out of XML, by the way) in a number of ways. My main gripe was it lacked a way for the GM to write a macro that could address and test attributes in a character sheet in an automated fashion. You had to do that manually (for secret rolls) or by asking a player to make the roll in the chat window (for explicit rolls), but it would have been nice to allow the GM to "send" a DC 15 Spot test to a character and get a result back, either secretly, or with player knowledge/activation. Even better if this could be done to a "party" by pointing the test to a gametree node under which all characters resided.

Is there a way in MapTool to "group" characters into "parties"? Is there a way for the GM to "send" a "test" (system dependent) to a given stat of a given character/party? I've been thinking of play from a charsheet-centric mode for so long...maybe there's a way to do this from the map.

[Azhrei]

Welcome to RPTools, ryff.

Your background with OpenRPG will be helpful as MapTool enters the 1.4 development phase -- the UI is one of the targets for 1.4.

Is there a way in MapTool to "group" characters into "parties"? Is there a way for the GM to "send" a "test" (system dependent) to a given stat of a given character/party? I've been thinking of play from a charsheet-centric mode for so long...maybe there's a way to do this from the map.

(I should probably move this post and the ones below it to the MapTool forum; I'll do that after the next post so that anyone reading it here will know to follow it.)

There is currently no grouping other than NPC/PC. There are macro functions that will return a list of all tokens with certain attributes, such as the "PC" or "NPC" attribute or all tokens with a certain state set (so you could group tokens using states, but players would be able to change them on-the-fly). You might be interested in scanning the MapTool forum for the two threads, "Permissions" and "Wargamers: What do you need from MapTool?" as they both cover a lot of the interesting territory in terms of what is needed from MapTool in the future.

It is definitely possible to select a bunch of tokens (by drawing a box around them with the left mouse button, for example) and then activate a macro that iterates over those tokens. In fact, this is a very common theme amongst many of the macros in the various MapTool frameworks (see the General -> User Creations -> Campaign Frameworks forum).

(Hmm, there's no wiki article on exactly how to do that, though. Well, if no one else tackles that I'll try to get to it sometime next week when my load lightens up a bit.)

[Irrlicht]

I have something to say about this.

When I downloaded CharTool to use it with Pathfinder I discovered some things:
1) It had a limited choice of rulesets.
2) There was no Pathfinder among them.
3) The closest ruleset to Pathfinder was DnD's 3.5 set, which I couldn't manage to load for some reason.
4) Since each ruleset is uneditable, I couldn't just pick a random one and modify it as I needed (also, if I needed to houserule something in a premade ruleset it would again be uneditable).

So, here are the features CharTool should present in my idea:
1) The tool has a function to connect Game Master and players exactly like MapTool (so that the char sheets will be visible to all participants, not only the GM).
2) The GM creates new group of sheets with names (virtually unlimited in number, say, for instance, the "PCs" group, the "helpful NPCs" group, the "monsters" group and so on), each one of which can contain a number (again, virtually unlimited) of char sheets. Every single char sheet can be set as visible/invisible and editable/uneditable to normal players.
3) Each char sheet starts as a blank space. Imagine it like the space where in MapTool you rightclick to create or load the new macros. Here you can create boxes with names (like the "personal info" box, the "feats" box, the "ability scores" box, and so on). These boxes will look like the macro groups of MapTool.
4) Inside the boxes the GM can create a number of cells in a box, and the cells are editable with the same codes of MapTool; this way, imagine I have the "Base Attack Bonus" cell, in which I write "[r: BAB = 8]", after the editing it will just show a cell that reports "8" (maybe I added a text cell before that, where I wrote "BAB"). Now I have the "Attack Roll" cell, next to which I put the code "[r: AtkRoll = 1d20 + BAB]"; this last cell will show "1d20 + 8".

...and so on.
Then the sets could be saved and loaded, so that they could be made available for standard rpgs.

I hope I explained it clear as I see it, because I think a CharTool with that flexibility and able to connect GM and players would be something awesome.

[jay]

There was no Pathfinder among them.

I have started a Pathfinder game settings file, but it isn't much different than the 3.5 set. I haven't had the time to work on this and no one else has offered to work on it.

3) The closest ruleset to Pathfinder was DnD's 3.5 set, which I couldn't manage to load for some reason.

Known bug to be fixed in the next release.

4) Since each ruleset is uneditable, I couldn't just pick a random one and modify it as I needed (also, if I needed to houserule something in a premade ruleset it would again be uneditable).

Something else I haven't finished. There are instructions on how to edit them by hand.

So, here are the features CharTool should present in my idea:
1) The tool has a function to connect Game Master and players exactly like MapTool (so that the char sheets will be visible to all participants, not only the GM).

CT itself won't have that functionality, I've been working on embedding CT into MT so that this is available. For now you just have to share files.

2) The GM creates new group of sheets with names (virtually unlimited in number, say, for instance, the "PCs" group, the "helpful NPCs" group, the "monsters" group and so on), each one of which can contain a number (again, virtually unlimited) of char sheets. Every single char sheet can be set as visible/invisible and editable/uneditable to normal players.

What is the purpose of grouping the character sheets? Is it just a part of their name or does it have some other purpose. CT can already have an unlimited number of character sheets and they can be named as needed, and IT has the notion of tying a character sheet to a type of combatant.

3) Each char sheet starts as a blank space. Imagine it like the space where in MapTool you rightclick to create or load the new macros. Here you can create boxes with names (like the "personal info" box, the "feats" box, the "ability scores" box, and so on). These boxes will look like the macro groups of MapTool.
4) Inside the boxes the GM can create a number of cells in a box, and the cells are editable with the same codes of MapTool; this way, imagine I have the "Base Attack Bonus" cell, in which I write "[r: BAB = 8]", after the editing it will just show a cell that reports "8" (maybe I added a text cell before that, where I wrote "BAB"). Now I have the "Attack Roll" cell, next to which I put the code "[r: AtkRoll = 1d20 + BAB]"; this last cell will show "1d20 + 8".

I've been thinking about adding my own character sheet builder to CT but that is a lot of work and I'm not sure when I can get to it. Right now you use Abeille or a Java Visual editor for Swing to create them. The components are tied to the character data through the name of the property that is displayed and/or edited. The new components int CT that you can use with this have the ability to be scripted in either a simplified version of MT's macros (only one line and no square brackets or in JavaScript. This gives the user maximum flexibility, but it isn't easy to figure out. I need to add something like this that is much easier for others to use.

[Irrlicht]

Alright, thanks for your work.

Anyway the groups of sheets I was talking about would be just to have a clean tree-like organization.
As I said, I may want to have groups like "PCs", "friendly NPCs", "aberrations", "golems", "Baron's minions", "dwellers of the dark hill", etc. etc. instead of having them all together divided only as PCs and NPCs.

Not a "must have" feature, of course, but if it's there surely it can be useful.

[jay]

Ah, now I think I understand what you are saying. When you say character sheet you mean a single Monster, PC or NPC. When I was saying character sheet I mean the screen that gets filled in with the data from a single Monster, PC, or NPC. In my terminology the same character sheet can be used by multiple combatants.

The functionality you are looking for is in IT. It has a Group Tool (in the tools menu) that lets you create a bunch of NPCs, PCs and Monsters and place them into a single group. Then you can drag the group to IT or MT and have the tokens show up in the initiative list or map.

[ryffreturns]

What is the purpose of grouping the character sheets? Is it just a part of their name or does it have some other purpose.

From a GM's POV: So that macros can be executed on "groups", which means serially executed on all character sheets in that group. Search checks, spot checks, fall into a trap checks, saving throws, etc. If there is an automated way to perform tests against stats in a charsheet, having the ability to send that test to the group, instead of rolling for each character individually, is a fantastic GM timesaver. Also, things like initiative can be rolled for a whole group (even though you have a tool for it, I know).

Grouping for map functions would be great, too. Five orcs are first wave, four ogres second waves reinforcements. Being able to click a "make visible" action on the group of four ogres in one shot, rather than individually, is handy.

The ability to handle selective testing is great, too, if possible. "If the character CLASS = Wizard, roll D20 vs. Read Magic" Send that test to the group, and have the result reported back to the GM for each charsheet whose class=Wizard.