Request for Input: Initiative Tool

[jay]

In my comments below, I'm going to try to map your requirements to the functionality currently in init tool. Init tool was designed with D&D in mind, so it follows that process and terminology. In general, you would get all of the combatants together in a list, roll initiative & add the init bonus, resolve ties, then start working through them one by one. In addition, init tool assigns each combatant a type (i.e. player/monster/NPC) and a wait state used to track if a combatant is readied or delayed. The available types and wait states are completely editable by the GM.

My comments below are just suggestions, your mileage may very

I'll send you a more complete set of info but the gist of it is that there are two types of initiative: Unengaged and Engaged.

I'm using figure generically for both PCs, NPCs and monsters.

Unengaged is for those figures that aren't in melee combat with each other. Each side has a designated leader and the leader rolls initiative with the winning side choosing whether they will go first or last. The roll is D10 + Perception + Mil. Scientist Rank. I could live without having this in an Initiative Tool. To implement this the tool would need to have some notion of whether or not a figure was in actual melee combat or not and then would have to know which group a figure belonged to. Spellcasters and archers are considered unengaged unless they are in an opponents melee zone.

Can a combatant switch back and forth between unengaged and engaged making them have different initiatve based on that state? If so, I am thinking that you might want to assign a wait state to show unengaged units. I currently don't have an exit that would change init order on a state change, but that would be easy to do. The hard part is telling it what needs to be done when that happens. Most likely you would have to wait for scripting support to be able to take full advantage of this, but I'm sure we can work out some early adopter support .

Engaged initiative is skill based for each participant in melee combat. It is a fixed value based on Agility + Rank w/Weapon + Perception. Those with a higher Initiative Value (IV) get to go first. Combat is normally resolved in melee groups. If a PC is fighting two Orcs then within that group the attacks would be resolved in Initiative Value order before moving to another melee group. If the tool could support the notion of which figures were engaged with which that would be really cool.

Currently there is no way to goup combatants. After init tool has been released you and I can talk about this again and get some requirments together. This sounds like functionality that could be useful to all sorts of games. Until then you would have to manually position the combatants together.

Engaged combatants act first and unengaged go last.

If you really want to make it flexible enough to handle DQ combat then it also needs to allow for two different damage types: Endurance and Fatigue. These are like Killing and Stun damage in other games.

Initially there will be no tracking of any sort of damage, since there is currently no way to keep state with a combatant. When the character tool provides that type of data I can integrate displaying any data from character tool into init tool.

Minimum Features

• Ability to enter IVs for each combatant

This is supported. But if I add a way so that the inititiative 'roll' was turned off you could enter the IVs as init modifiers. This would allow you to save them off in an init tool group and not be modified when you start the encounter.

• Ability to order them manually or by IV

This is supported, but there is no way to resort the list after the encounter has been started. We can add this as a feature later if it is still needed.

• Ability to step through the list one by one and track time

If this means traverse the list in initiative order, then it will do that. It tracks the number of full rounds that have been played. There is also a stopwatch feature to track the amount of time that a player spends making their move if that is what you meant by track time.

• Load/Save Party Lists

The init tool has a way to track lists of combatants as a set before the encounter begins (they are called groups in init tool). Once the group is in the encounter, they are not related in any way by init tool.

• Load/Save Encounter Lists

You can load and save encounters.

Bonus Features:

• Tracking of both Endurance & Fatigue

This will have to wait for character tool.

• One or more user-defined rolls such as the Spot/Listen/Will rolls in TurnWatcher

This will also have to wait for character tool.

• One or more user-defined stat/ability columns

This will also have to wait for character tool.

• Being able to designate a figure as Engaged/Unengaged

I think you should be able to define your own wait state that can show that.

• Being able to apply a group designation to each figure

You can do this now by creating a type for each group, if this feature is just for viewing the groups.

• Being able to designate which figures were engaged with which and use that to sort by combat group

We will need to work out the requirements and add this as an enhancement.

Super Bonus Features

• Logging of combats

This sounds like a good idea. What would you like to see logged? Right now the init tool can only keep track of who goes next, but when it has more data from character tool it may be able to do more.

• Track spell or other event durations

It can do this. I have added the concept of a timer that can expire after a set number of rounds.

Well, you asked.

Yes I did
Thanks for the information.

[Emryys]

Here are 2 free java initiative tools I found on the net...

Initiative Tool




Here's a Quick one....

Who's Next

They are very easy and maybe you can get some ideas....

[jay]

Here are 2 free java initiative tools I found on the net...

Initiative Tool

Here's a Quick one....

Who's Next

They are very easy and maybe you can get some ideas....

It looks like I have the functionality of both of these other than the damage tracking. I was waiting to add this until we had the character tool data available to help with this. But, I can add a feature that would have some battle stats avaialable and modifieable until the character tool is ready. Would you perfer I add the damage functionality or work in character tool

[trevor]

Would you perfer I add the damage functionality or work in character tool

Probably easiest to put it into the Init Tool as an underlying framework, and just put damage or whatever as a default. That way it's usable without any external tools.

[Phergus]

<snip>In general, you would get all of the combatants together in a list, roll initiative & add the init bonus, resolve ties, then start working through them one by one.

If, as you suggested, the initiative roll could be turned off and the initiative bonus be set to DQ's IV then it would be workable. As long as ties didn't confuse it that is.

In addition, init tool assigns each combatant a type (i.e. player/monster/NPC) and a wait state used to track if a combatant is readied or delayed. The available types and wait states are completely editable by the GM.

This sounds very workable.

Can a combatant switch back and forth between unengaged and engaged making them have different initiatve based on that state? If so, I am thinking that you might want to assign a wait state to show unengaged units.

Engaged/Unengaged state is strictly a function of whether or not a figure is in some other figures melee zone. Which equates to saying that they are in the 3 facing hexes of an opponent. Note that both Engaged and Unengaged can take actions or attack. An Unengaged person would just use a ranged attack. An Engaged person becomes Unengaged when there are no longer any opponents in an adjacent hex whether through movement or because they all died. The program wouldn't need to do this automatically. It could be a flag or state that the GM sets for the figure during the combat round.

Currently there is no way to goup combatants. After init tool has been released you and I can talk about this again and get some requirments together. This sounds like functionality that could be useful to all sorts of games. Until then you would have to manually position the combatants together.

Certainly something that could be added later and I agree that it has applications for games other than DQ. Manually positioning the combatants would work fine.

Initially there will be no tracking of any sort of damage, since there is currently no way to keep state with a combatant. When the character tool provides that type of data I can integrate displaying any data from character tool into init tool.

Not a big deal as that kind of functionality transforms it from being an initiative tool to being a more general purpose combat tool.

This is supported. But if I add a way so that the inititiative 'roll' was turned off you could enter the IVs as init modifiers. This would allow you to save them off in an init tool group and not be modified when you start the encounter.

Certainly usable like that.

Ability to order them manually or by IV

This is supported, but there is no way to resort the list after the encounter has been started. We can add this as a feature later if it is still needed.

For DQ, I would need the ability to re-order the list between combat rounds though not during a round. Essentially for DQ I would prefer that it ignore initiative values entirely and just traverse the list in the order in which the GM places them. For the program to use DQ initiative values it would really need the notions of engaged status and combat groups.

Ability to step through the list one by one and track time

If this means traverse the list in initiative order, then it will do that. It tracks the number of full rounds that have been played. There is also a stopwatch feature to track the amount of time that a player spends making their move if that is what you meant by track time.

Traversing the list top to bottom, irrespective of initiative value. Tracking number of rounds is what I meant.

Load/Save Party Lists

The init tool has a way to track lists of combatants as a set before the encounter begins (they are called groups in init tool). Once the group is in the encounter, they are not related in any way by init tool.

Load/Save Encounter Lists

You can load and save encounters.

Sounds like everything is covered there.

Bonus Features:

• Tracking of both Endurance & Fatigue

• One or more user-defined rolls such as the Spot/Listen/Will rolls in TurnWatcher

• One or more user-defined stat/ability columns

This will also have to wait for character tool.

Makes sense.

• Being able to designate a figure as Engaged/Unengaged

I think you should be able to define your own wait state that can show that.

Will know better once you have a release version out but it sounds workable.

Being able to apply a group designation to each figure

You can do this now by creating a type for each group, if this feature is just for viewing the groups.

Thinking more along the lines of being able to sort the list by group.

Logging of combats

This sounds like a good idea. What would you like to see logged?

This would really only make sense once it had more functions like tracking hit points, doing attack rolls, doing saving throws, etc. I envision something like:

=Combat Begins=
PC Party: <name 1>, <name 2>, <name 3>,...
Opponents: <opp 1>, <opp 2>, <opp 3>,...

-Round 1-
Unengaged Initiative rolled: PCs have initiative
<name 1> engages <opp 2>
<name 1> attacks <opp 2>
<opp 2> takes 8 fatigue after armor
<name 2> attacks <opp 3>
<name 3> prepares spell
<opp 1> prepares spell
<opp 2> attacks <name 1>
<name 1> takes 6 fatigue after armor
<opp 3> engages <name 2>
<opp 3> attacks <name 2>

-Round 2-
<name 1> attacks <opp 2>
<opp 2> attacks <name 1>
<name 1> takes 5 endurance
<opp 3> attacks <name 2>
<name 2> prepares weapon
Unengaged Initiative rolled: Opponents have initiative
<opp 1> casts spell
<name 3> resists spell
<name 3> casts spell
<opp 1> takes 16 fatigue
<opp 1> is out of fatigue
...
and so on

Track spell or other event durations

It can do this. I have added the concept of a timer that can expire after a set number of rounds.

Excellent!

[Phergus]

But, I can add a feature that would have some battle stats avaialable and modifieable until the character tool is ready. Would you perfer I add the damage functionality or work in character tool

I think having the ability to track damage (as long as there are two categories) first in the Initiative Tool would really be a big help until the Character Tool was ready.

That also goes back to my suggestion for a couple of fields or columns that could be given user-defined names and values. These could be used for whatever purpose makes sense in a given RPG rule set until the Character Tool integration was there.

[Emryys]

I think having the ability to track damage (as long as there are two categories) first in the Initiative Tool would really be a big help until the Character Tool was ready.
That also goes back to my suggestion for a couple of fields or columns that could be given user-defined names and values. These could be used for whatever purpose makes sense in a given RPG rule set until the Character Tool integration was there.

Have a few user defined fields would solve the problem and wouldn't have to be taken out as they could be used for things like Ammo, potions, torches, whatever

[RPTroll]

Resisting... urge... to... write... three... page.... document. <gasp><sputter>

[Phergus]

I agree Emryys. With just a few user-definable fields GM's could come up with all kinds of uses depending on the RPG ruleset.

If a field could be defined as one of the following types almost anything could be done.

Fixed Value - For things like stats or armor class or other things that won't change during combat.

Variable Value - For things like hit points, mana points, or other stats/abilities that are likely to change during combat. Would need to be clickable/editable.

String/Label - Could be used to store figure status like hidden, invisible, prone, unconcious, dead, etc..

Random, One-shot - A user-definable die roll that is generated at the beginning of combat and doesn't change after that. Could be used for games where initiative is rolled once at the beginning of combat.

Random, Each Round - User-definable roll that is made each round. Possible uses include initiative and attack rolls.

Random, Roll on Click - User-definable roll that is made when a GM clicks on the field/column/some button. Could be used for saving throws, spot hidden, dodge rolls, etc..

That's the kind of functionality I was thinking of anyway.

[RPTroll]

There are plans in the works to have user defined values on tokens. The fields on the Init Panel/Combat Panel should feed off those allowing the DM/Player to choose the fields he wants displayed and allow for derived fields and optionally graphics. (power bar, hit point bar, dice roll button).

You should be able to bring token groups into the new window. In fact, you might want the ability to have more than one window to manage groups.

my 2 cents.

[jay]

There are plans in the works to have user defined values on tokens. The fields on the Init Panel/Combat Panel should feed off those allowing the DM/Player to choose the fields he wants displayed and allow for derived fields and optionally graphics. (power bar, hit point bar, dice roll button).

The plan is to hook Init tool into these values and allow the user to choose what they want to see.

You should be able to bring token groups into the new window. In fact, you might want the ability to have more than one window to manage groups.
my 2 cents.

Token groups and selected tokens from MT will be able to be dragged to init tool and it's group support. Haven't thought about allowing multiple windows to manage init tool groups, since the current group management window in the tool allows multiple groups to be edited at the same time.

[dooglio]

For the games I run (DragonQuest) I would need to be able to define initiative differently and would also need to rename the Spot/Listen/Will checks as well as redefine the dice rolls.

I know that this post is a bit after the fact, but I wanted to let you know that Turn Watcher has the ability to redefine the dice roll for Initiative. Eventually we will turn on the ability to have different die rolls per secret check.

We have also just released a new version (1.2) which now has the ability to track spell and ability effects, which should enhance your game!

[dooglio]

For the games I run (DragonQuest) I would need to be able to define initiative differently and would also need to rename the Spot/Listen/Will checks as well as redefine the dice rolls.

I know that this post is a bit after the fact, but I wanted to let you know that Turn Watcher has the ability to redefine the dice roll for Initiative. Eventually we will turn on the ability to have different die rolls per secret check.

We have also just released a new version (1.2) which now has the ability to track spell and ability effects, which should enhance your game!

You can download Turn Watcher here: http://www.turnwatcher.com, by the way.

[trevor]

Welcome dooglio. You ought to post that in the External Links and Resources forum

[RPMiller]

For the games I run (DragonQuest) I would need to be able to define initiative differently and would also need to rename the Spot/Listen/Will checks as well as redefine the dice rolls.

I know that this post is a bit after the fact, but I wanted to let you know that Turn Watcher has the ability to redefine the dice roll for Initiative. Eventually we will turn on the ability to have different die rolls per secret check.

We have also just released a new version (1.2) which now has the ability to track spell and ability effects, which should enhance your game!

It doesn't appear to be useful for other systems though.