[FREQ] On VBL tab, have Visible only in field of view of PC

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Dracwrym
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[FREQ] On VBL tab, have Visible only in field of view of PC

Post by Dracwrym »

Hi,

I create my maps in Gimp and do maps with jazzed edges for cave ins and the like. Tracing them in MapTools is a bit of a pain, so I thought of just exporting the walls and putting that on top of the floor. Then using the VBL tab when editing the properties of the walls (right-click -> edit). This was easy that I didn't need to trace a huge map that doesn't have neat lines. However, when the Always Visible is unchecked, the walls are black, but then it is checked, it's just that Always visible even when the PC token hasn't visited the room/area. I have Secret rooms in my maps, so this reveals them. What I love is that all the wall is visible, where tracing the walls with the VBL tools wouldn't show them properly.

It would be nice to only reveal the wall that can be seen by the PCs, so all the others are hidden.

Also, for my secret doors, I make the wall first, fill it with a texture, and then cut it out so it's seamless and completely hidden on the map. This was, it's completely hidden from the players and they can't guess where something is.

On the Secret doors, I can then edit the token to have a VBL field and it would match the surrounding walls when revealed. Unlike now where if I have a line on the walls, the door and walls look different, not lined up on the far side. If the walls and doors both had the VBL created under the edit option, then they would mesh perfectly.

Hope this makes sense.

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jfrazierjr
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Re: [FREQ] On VBL tab, have Visible only in field of view of

Post by jfrazierjr »

Dracwrym wrote:Hi,

I create my maps in Gimp and do maps with jazzed edges for cave ins and the like. Tracing them in MapTools is a bit of a pain, so I thought of just exporting the walls and putting that on top of the floor. Then using the VBL tab when editing the properties of the walls (right-click -> edit). This was easy that I didn't need to trace a huge map that doesn't have neat lines. However, when the Always Visible is unchecked, the walls are black, but then it is checked, it's just that Always visible even when the PC token hasn't visited the room/area. I have Secret rooms in my maps, so this reveals them. What I love is that all the wall is visible, where tracing the walls with the VBL tools wouldn't show them properly.

It would be nice to only reveal the wall that can be seen by the PCs, so all the others are hidden.

Also, for my secret doors, I make the wall first, fill it with a texture, and then cut it out so it's seamless and completely hidden on the map. This was, it's completely hidden from the players and they can't guess where something is.

On the Secret doors, I can then edit the token to have a VBL field and it would match the surrounding walls when revealed. Unlike now where if I have a line on the walls, the door and walls look different, not lined up on the far side. If the walls and doors both had the VBL created under the edit option, then they would mesh perfectly.

Hope this makes sense.
It does not....with the proper options, when you drop a new toenails on a map with vbl they will only see what their token would seek. As the token moves, the toenails reveals what they would see on each step of the way. This later part requires some typeople of grid and snap to grid being on. As long ad the last condition is meet, then it seems you don't have the correct options OR are not explaining well.

There are several youtube videos you can and should check out as I know they cover the basics of how vbl interacts and how I think you expect things to work...I can't get you the links right now though.

if that does not help, you need to provide the EXACT and FULL settings of your start server dialog as well as the token in question. The best bet is to take screenshots, upload to something like tinypic, and then include those in as links into the post. Another option is to create a VERY small campain file (ie, one map and one token with the simplest possible VBL ALONG with the above request for start server dialog settings) and put on google drive or dropbox or somewhere that can be a shared link.
I save all my Campaign Files to DropBox. Not only can I access a campaign file from pretty much any OS that will run Maptool(Win,OSX, linux), but each file is versioned, so if something goes crazy wild, I can always roll back to a previous version of the same file.

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Re: [FREQ] On VBL tab, have Visible only in field of view of

Post by Dracwrym »

It's most likely not being too clear.

I created a basic map in Gimp, just 2 rooms with a hallway connecting them. I have two pictures to try to illustrate what I mean. I only did the walls. I didn't add any floors, but this will show what I am trying to do. The two screenshots are here: http://imgur.com/a/N8xvT

I imported the walls on the background layer, and edited the VBL settings as in the screenshot in picture. I then go to the Map menu to turn on Fog of War and set vision to day. The PC is connected using the following settings:
Players can reveal vision and Auto reveal on move...

As seen in the picture, the play can see all the walls, even in the bottom room that has not been visited yet. Also, because of the hallway, there is no Field of Vision to that room. When I took the screenshot, I set a delay, so I could mouse over the PC Token so the white field of vision lines would be visible.

What I expect: Only the wall parts that can be seen in the field of vision be revealed.

To have it seen at all when using generating the VBL using that tab, I need to set Always Visible to true.

What I want is that the whole thickness of that wall to be seen like it is in the screenshots, but only in the field of vision and in areas that were already seen.

Cheers,
Jon

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jfrazierjr
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Re: [FREQ] On VBL tab, have Visible only in field of view of

Post by jfrazierjr »

Dracwrym wrote:It's most likely not being too clear.

I created a basic map in Gimp, just 2 rooms with a hallway connecting them. I have two pictures to try to illustrate what I mean. I only did the walls. I didn't add any floors, but this will show what I am trying to do. The two screenshots are here: http://imgur.com/a/N8xvT

I imported the walls on the background layer, and edited the VBL settings as in the screenshot in picture. I then go to the Map menu to turn on Fog of War and set vision to day. The PC is connected using the following settings:
Players can reveal vision and Auto reveal on move...

As seen in the picture, the play can see all the walls, even in the bottom room that has not been visited yet. Also, because of the hallway, there is no Field of Vision to that room. When I took the screenshot, I set a delay, so I could mouse over the PC Token so the white field of vision lines would be visible.

What I expect: Only the wall parts that can be seen in the field of vision be revealed.

To have it seen at all when using generating the VBL using that tab, I need to set Always Visible to true.

What I want is that the whole thickness of that wall to be seen like it is in the screenshots, but only in the field of vision and in areas that were already seen.

Cheers,
Jon

Again, EVERY setting on the Start Server screen.. all of them. Also, in order to properly test things, you must both start a server AND a separate instance of Maptool so that you can see exactly as the player would see since you are the GMS SHOULD see everything. This is also how you should be running your game if you play locally(projector or TV), and honestly, it's kind of helpful to have a player connection while running the game.

Also, as I mentioned, you MUST include the token light/vision setting as those are important in conjunction with the start server settings. Maptool has many different possible and sometimes mutually exclusive settings and in order to tell you what to do, we HAVE to know what you have set.

People are happy to help here, but you have to give the information asked for and follow instructions so we know you are doing what we expect you to be doing or we can give you the correct instructions when you are "off".

Just a guess, you don't have the start server dialog set with the proper options OR have not started a server.

EDIT: start a seperate instance of MT as a player with a token owned by that "player". The GM can see everything and thus you as the GM can see all. I am assuming this is the issue OR you don't have your server options set up right.
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Re: [FREQ] On VBL tab, have Visible only in field of view of

Post by Dracwrym »

Hi,

First, those screenshots were taken from two different instances of MapTools. If you note the fact that one image had Player 1 at the top and the other had GM, so they were the proper views you asked for.

I quickly added some floor tiles to the map to better show the unvisited vs visted areas. One image is the GM view and the other what the player would see.

I took screenshots of the server settings and the PC Token settings. The wall token's settings were in the previous screenshots.

For the wall token's Visibility Tolerance, I tried all numbers from 1 to 9.

Map vision is set to Day.

New screenshots here: http://imgur.com/a/ziTR0

Jon

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jfrazierjr
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Re: [FREQ] On VBL tab, have Visible only in field of view of

Post by jfrazierjr »

Dracwrym wrote:Hi,

First, those screenshots were taken from two different instances of MapTools. If you note the fact that one image had Player 1 at the top and the other had GM, so they were the proper views you asked for.

I quickly added some floor tiles to the map to better show the unvisited vs visted areas. One image is the GM view and the other what the player would see.

I took screenshots of the server settings and the PC Token settings. The wall token's settings were in the previous screenshots.

For the wall token's Visibility Tolerance, I tried all numbers from 1 to 9.

Map vision is set to Day.

New screenshots here: http://imgur.com/a/ziTR0

Jon
Ok, I think I know whats going on here. You have your VBL on a tok as apposed to just drawn VBL(as your first links to imagr show). This is a "newish" feature which I DON'T believe is currently in the standard build(I could be wrong) and I think was something Jamz was playing with. Anyway, it's important what layer stuff is on in these contexts. Someone had a similar issue not to long ago and it was related to tokens on the wrong layer(the token with the VBL on it), but I don't remember the exact details. I seem to think that if you had added the VBL manually vs on a token, it would have worked as you expected. This is assuming of course that you actually have the FOW enabled at the time the token is first placed and it "moves"(which is another possible problem, but I THINK you said you turned it on previously. Try putting that token with VBL onto the Object layer. If that does not help, you might want to either wait for Jamz to see this since he added that code in the not distant past as I have to assume there is something you are not getting right(not that it's your fault mind you!) because it's a complicated topic and as I said before, some of the options are mutually exclusive OR change how other options behave(this is bad, but it is what it is).

On a side note, if you draw VBL directly vs placing on a token, it will work absolutely, assuming all other settings are configured properly. Of course, if you sole goal was to test the new VBL on a token feature (opposed to just getting VBL to work for a game you are doing in the next day or two), then you have no choice but to wait for Jamztheman or someone who has played with this feature(I have not) to answer.

EDIT: see this post: http://forums.rptools.net/viewtopic.php ... en#p266182. After reading that, it appears that the VBL on a token is really designed for things the player can see RIGHT now... such as spell case which blocks vision past a certain "area of effect". That may not be the ultimate goal, but that appears to be the existing limitation.
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Get your Dropbox 2GB via my referral link, and as a bonus, I get an extra 250 MB of space. Even if you don't don't use my link, I still enthusiastically recommend Dropbox..

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Re: [FREQ] On VBL tab, have Visible only in field of view of

Post by JamzTheMan »

Hi Dracwrym,

The "token vbl" is really meant for objects like maps, statues, book cases, cars, etc. And really for things that could "move" during game play and not for "static" things like walls and such. YMMV.

Also, the "always visible" is independent of "token vbl". In other words, you could place a statue or obelisk or some such object on the map, draw vbl over the whole thing using normal VBL tools, then click "always visible". The "tolerance" will set how much of this object has to be "seen" before it's revealed (think of an object with 9 squares like a number pad). The reason for this option is, say, a token can peak down a corridor and only a "sliver" is seen, you may now want to reveal the 100x100' statue yet just because they can see a 3" sliver. Also, you only really see doors this way when they can actually see the door.

The "old" method of covering up columns, statues, doors, etc was to draw an X over it. This blocked LOS ok, but it only ever showed a portion of the object (half a door or 1/4 of a statue/rock/column) and the underlying object was hard to see.

Now, with that said, it's not really useful for maps, at least in your use case. "Always visible" is just that, the whole object is either visible or not. You are asking MapTool to say, "show me a subsection of this object based on what this token can see" but MapTool has to use "VBL" to know what a token can "see", and you just covered up your object with VBL, so, of course the token can't "see" it. Does that make sense? In other words, how does MapTool know how far to look? Does it look 1 pixel past the VBL and show that? Does it look 10 pixels past? How does it know where to stop looking?

I don't know how it would look or work, but for your use case, you COULD cut up the map into corridors and rooms, so each one was it's own object then place them like you are. But honestly, you are better off manually drawing the VBL around the outside of your map. OR, if you want to work in GIMP 100%, create a separate layer for your VBL/Mask which would be on the outside (or center) of your walls, and bring both into MapTool, setting VBL only on the masked object. YMMV.
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Re: [FREQ] On VBL tab, have Visible only in field of view of

Post by Dracwrym »

Hi Jamz,

I have no idea how to word the following as my head is not in the technology, but I will try. This is with MapTools 1.4.1.7 Dev/Test from http://maptool.craigs-stuff.net/test-builds/.

I have very large, complicated maps with secret rooms and not so very straight lines. I thought it would be easy to have my walls and floor as separate layers in Gimp to export them separately. Then it's setting the floor part as the Map background and importing the walls on the background layer and using token VBL to do the whole thing very quickly. It's a very meticulous process to have to trace the whole thing using the VBL tools.

Now to try to explain reasons the other methods don't work well.

Tracing around the walls would work to a certain point, but not for the secret rooms. To make the secret doors, I fill the whole wall with the texture and then cut out the door. This is the make the texture appear to be seamless, because I put that cutout piece as a separate graphic, then place it over the hole in MapTools. If I have a VBL line behind the door, I would not be able to use "Bag of Tricks" to open the door revealing the secret passage as the line would be there.

If, however, I added VBL to the door, I would need to check the "Always Visible" checkbox to activate that feature. Then the "door" would be visible when players are moving close to that area, thus know that there's something fishy about it.

Also, if I manually put the VBL lines behind the walls, then use BoT to add VBL to the doors, the VBL lines do not line up properly. Also, BoT somehow messes up the existing VBL lines by erasing some and adding them in different locations when the doors are toggled and don't go back to normal when doors are closed. However, with walls and doors using token VBL, it works fine.

Having an option for "Only visible when in field of view" would be useful on statues and pillars and whatnot so then when the map is zoomed out, they are not visible unless they were discovered.

I would be willing to test this feature with my maps if you choose to do implement this. Or making some feature that is wall specific to do this.

Thanks,
Jon

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Re: [FREQ] On VBL tab, have Visible only in field of view of

Post by Dracwrym »

I quickly edited a player view screenshot to show what it would look like with my suggestion for "Visible only when in field of view" option would look like.

http://imgur.com/a/IfVfh

Jon

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Re: [FREQ] On VBL tab, have Visible only in field of view of

Post by jfrazierjr »

Dracwrym wrote:Hi Jamz,

I have no idea how to word the following as my head is not in the technology, but I will try. This is with MapTools 1.4.1.7 Dev/Test from http://maptool.craigs-stuff.net/test-builds/.

I have very large, complicated maps with secret rooms and not so very straight lines. I thought it would be easy to have my walls and floor as separate layers in Gimp to export them separately. Then it's setting the floor part as the Map background and importing the walls on the background layer and using token VBL to do the whole thing very quickly. It's a very meticulous process to have to trace the whole thing using the VBL tools.

Now to try to explain reasons the other methods don't work well.

Tracing around the walls would work to a certain point, but not for the secret rooms. To make the secret doors, I fill the whole wall with the texture and then cut out the door. This is the make the texture appear to be seamless, because I put that cutout piece as a separate graphic, then place it over the hole in MapTools. If I have a VBL line behind the door, I would not be able to use "Bag of Tricks" to open the door revealing the secret passage as the line would be there.

If, however, I added VBL to the door, I would need to check the "Always Visible" checkbox to activate that feature. Then the "door" would be visible when players are moving close to that area, thus know that there's something fishy about it.

Also, if I manually put the VBL lines behind the walls, then use BoT to add VBL to the doors, the VBL lines do not line up properly. Also, BoT somehow messes up the existing VBL lines by erasing some and adding them in different locations when the doors are toggled and don't go back to normal when doors are closed. However, with walls and doors using token VBL, it works fine.

Having an option for "Only visible when in field of view" would be useful on statues and pillars and whatnot so then when the map is zoomed out, they are not visible unless they were discovered.

I would be willing to test this feature with my maps if you choose to do implement this. Or making some feature that is wall specific to do this.

Thanks,
Jon



So.. spitballing here since I have not used the BoT in YEARS. Have your door object with it's default state to look like the normal texture. This would of course have the VBL on it and would then look just like another wall segment.

Then, when the detection happens, switch images to the actual door object. I know you can remove VBL using the macro languages which are drawn, but I don't know if the same can be done for VBL on tokens. Wolph42 might be able to provide more insight since the BoT's was built by him as to how he would handle this situation.

Worst case scenario, you would use the same dual image token trick i mentioned before but with the VBL directly drawn instead of on the object and then using the macro language, remove it when needed.

But again, the tokens would need to be on the token layer, not the Background/Object layer.
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Re: [FREQ] On VBL tab, have Visible only in field of view of

Post by JamzTheMan »

Dracwrym wrote:I quickly edited a player view screenshot to show what it would look like with my suggestion for "Visible only when in field of view" option would look like.

http://imgur.com/a/IfVfh

Jon
I get what you are saying, so in a shorter version, it's currently not possible in the current code base.

A simple fix is to adjust what you are using for your "VBL". using your example, select all the pixels outside your walls. Create a new layer, fill that selection with a solid color.
Map
layers.jpg
layers.jpg (60.59 KiB) Viewed 2327 times
Now save this layer and use it as your VBL.
Mask
masklayer.jpg
masklayer.jpg (110.52 KiB) Viewed 2327 times
-Jamz
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Re: [FREQ] On VBL tab, have Visible only in field of view of

Post by Dracwrym »

Thanks for all your suggestions. I tried the mask option and this makes inconsistencies in the VBL when I have a secret door. The door has Token VBL.

You can see the white lines and how the wall part does not mesh up. This is a zoom in on one of my actual play maps.

http://imgur.com/2HBrv2C

I could make tiles of the walls, but that would be a bit painful. If the tiles are too big, then when part of the wall is seen, the whole thing will be even out of the visual range. On the reverse side, if they are small, then it's importing a lot of tiles. This is why I wanted to do this in Gimp in the first place -- so it's not so many tiles to place, among other things.

This is why I really hope that in the future a better wall VBL system can be done.

Thanks for your time and patience in trying to understand what I was saying. :)

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Re: [FREQ] On VBL tab, have Visible only in field of view of

Post by JamzTheMan »

Just fix your VBL on your hidden door object...

First, create these 2 very simple macros, it will help manage your vbl:
Transfer Map VBL to Token VBL
[r: transferVBL(0)]
Transfer Token VBL to Map VBL
[r: transferVBL(1)]
<!-- And then erase vbl from token -->
[r: finalVblData = "{'shape':'none'}"]
[r: setTokenVBL(finalVblData)]
Start with no VBL on your "hidden door". 1. Place your hidden door, then click Transfer Map VBL to Token VBL. 2. Erase the map VBL under you token VBL (I leave 1-2 pixel wide overlap). 3. Profit.

In your use case, I'm assuming your token "bounds" extends behind it into the VBL. If not, create a larger footprint around your hidden token. Since you are showing your walls, you obviously do not want to have vbl over your hidden wall part...
-Jamz
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Re: [FREQ] On VBL tab, have Visible only in field of view of

Post by JamzTheMan »

Here is an example, I use a "S" token to mark my secret doors on the hidden layer. This token has VBL captured from the existing VBL drawn first so it matches exactly.
Secret Door
vbl-view.JPG
vbl-view.JPG (45.62 KiB) Viewed 2290 times
Player View
player-view.JPG
player-view.JPG (42.05 KiB) Viewed 2290 times
GM View
gm-view.JPG
gm-view.JPG (38.89 KiB) Viewed 2290 times
Example, taking the same token, moving it to a new spot, getting new VBL:
New VBL
transfer-vbl.JPG
transfer-vbl.JPG (36.45 KiB) Viewed 2290 times
Note: You can see where the Yellow/Blue overlap 1 pixel

From here, you can manually move the token to reveal the secret area, or use macros. (I have a custom set of macros I use to find/show/move doors based on what a pc token can see within 5 feet of token)
-Jamz
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Re: [FREQ] On VBL tab, have Visible only in field of view of

Post by Dracwrym »

Jamz,

Am I reading you correctly that you are suggesting to extend the mask so that it's behind the secret doors and then use a macro to transfer that part of the VBL to the token? I've tried using the main VBL editor and it highlights the VBL applied to tokens, but doesn't allow erasing parts of it, so how I would I erase the part under the token?

Also, I'm not sure how to make the macros. That's why I was using Bag of Tricks, because it did everything for me. Would you mind sharing your door marcos? Or doing a step by step of how you did those secret doors?

Sorry, you can tell I don't know much about the internals and workings of MapTools.

Thanks,
Jon

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