RPTools "next" Git Repository

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Azhrei
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Re: RPTools "next" Git Repository

Post by Azhrei »

Never heard of genisoimage, but if it's available for Linux then it's probably source code which means I can likely get it/build it/run it on OSX. A Linux solution is a good one since we could -- at a minimum -- provide a package that could be executed from within a Linux live CD, allowing anyone to build the final JARs pretty easily (inside a VM, for example).

@username: The installation is what we're talking about. ;) OSX uses a "disk image" (filenames ending with ".dmg") as the installation format of choice. Users double-click the .dmg and the OS mounts the disk image and opens a window showing the contents. There is typically an icon that the user drags to their /Applications folder and now the app is installed. Building the disk image is half the problem, the other is the Jar Bundler.

If folks want to look into this then I'll help as I can. Right now I'm focused on getting these other patches applied and committed so b89 can be produced. I'll worry about automating the builds more when 1.3 is over. :?

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Re: RPTools "next" Git Repository

Post by username »

Looking around stackoverflow seems to have some likely answers. What I meant was something like a java web start application, which would issue the local commands (e.g. System.exec) to create the image.

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Re: RPTools "next" Git Repository

Post by Craig »

For anyone following along I have decided to reorginize the git repo a bit to remove the rptools-common level (mostly due to the fact that OsoRojo made some good points in a PM where it could get us into trouble in the future)
So the repositories are
"Top Level stuff"
https://github.com/RPTools/rptools

"Common Library"
https://github.com/RPTools/rplib

Scripting Engine (previously known as parser)
https://github.com/RPTools/scripting-engine

Dice Tool
https://github.com/RPTools/dicetool

As the very minor inconvenience of having another repo to fetch from is far out weighed by its benefits.

Each of these has the issue tracking enabled.

Obviously more repos will be created as we go along.


ignore the rptools-common repo (and the man behind the curtain) it will disappear soonish.

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jfrazierjr
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Re: RPTools "next" Git Repository

Post by jfrazierjr »

I just want to quickly pipe in here and give a big thank you to username for getting a start on "something" for the next generation! And of course, I also want to praise Craig for keeping with the incremental updates.


About style... I also find it a bit hard to deal with. I know Azhrei follows Sun's Java style guidelines, some of which I find quite moronically stupid. For me, my biggest grip is that I feel open/close braces should line up. In most IDE's, this usually is not a problem since there is usually a "find matching brace" command, but outside of IDE's(or in a few IDE's that don't have that feature...), having the open/close at the same indentation level makes the code FAR easier to read IMHO(well... not really that darn humble about it cause frankly I feel strongly that my way is the one true way!!!)
I save all my Campaign Files to DropBox. Not only can I access a campaign file from pretty much any OS that will run Maptool(Win,OSX, linux), but each file is versioned, so if something goes crazy wild, I can always roll back to a previous version of the same file.

Get your Dropbox 2GB via my referral link, and as a bonus, I get an extra 250 MB of space. Even if you don't don't use my link, I still enthusiastically recommend Dropbox..

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Re: RPTools "next" Git Repository

Post by badsequel »

jfrazierjr wrote:...For me, my biggest grip is that I feel open/close braces should line up... ... cause frankly I feel strongly that my way is the one true way!!!
[Off Topic]
Made me laugh that.
Where I work the Operations Manager can recognize who wrote what bit of SQL from the "styling" done to the lines of code.

The rest of us can hardly read his code, though.. :lol:
[/Off Topic]
My shared rpg stuff:
(exe)TokenNameChanger3: https://www.dropbox.com/s/cqsof54v3dl2k ... 3.zip?dl=0
Tiddly Spell Wiki: https://www.dropbox.com/s/53pya4k68mnvc ... ddly01.htm

Stuff to check out:
Mote Kickstarter(back it): https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/74 ... abletop-ev

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Re: RPTools "next" Git Repository

Post by username »

1.4/2.0 discussions have died down once more it seems. I have added a bit of code to the repository this thread started out with to illustrate a few concepts. Not very well documented, I'm afraid, as it should be for prototypes. I also did some minor updates here: http://forums.rptools.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=23650.

I'll keep adding in more "illustrations" as I find time. The general architecture setup is not clear enough (for me at least) to provide "live" code yet, beside in the asset-management repo.

Or is there another place where 2.0 discussions are continuing?

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Re: RPTools "next" Git Repository

Post by JamzTheMan »

Nice! Didn't know so much coding was going on. :) Thanks username and craig!

I'd love to contribute to 2.0, but I'm a follower not a leader lol. When the framework get a little more solid and you need more xyz coded and I can follow your standards, I'll jump in. :)

Speaking of, are you guys still going with JavaFX for GUI and looking to use Java 8 as it's slated for GA in a few months? It's looking like JavaFX may be Android/iOS/Browser compatible which would really make MapTool 2.0 shine if it worked on all platforms!
-Jamz
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Custom MapTool 1.4.x.x Fork: maptool.nerps.net
Custom TokenTool 2.0 Fork: tokentool.nerps.net
More information here: MapTool Nerps! Fork

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Re: RPTools "next" Git Repository

Post by username »

I also don't consider myself a leader here; my support in maptool was just a few patches so far. But as all devs around here, we "surface" only ever so often and I wanted to make my results available.

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Re: RPTools "next" Git Repository

Post by username »

I added in a few more things. Now I'd like to prototype the client/server technology. Was there any decision on what to use? I personally would like to use JSON to be able to more easily debug communication. Hessian doesn't lend itself to that. Has there been a discussion here about that? Any other considerations?

At this point it is slow going, but anybody joining is more than welcome, even though we are only "playing around". For instance, has anybody tried designing with FXML/CSS before? My UI is all "default". I only took the splash screen from one of the mockup threads.

Just a quick rundown on what is in (remember proof-of-concept level only): layer control (raise/lower/hide), image collection (aka object layer), vision/vision blocking, grid, movement, asset-management, javascript macro engine. Major impediments: no save, no tokens.

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Re: RPTools "next" Git Repository

Post by username »

I have added a few pieces and made the UI a (small) bit more userfriendly yesterday.

I have been following the discussions regarding forks etc in other threads. Seeing that 2.0 generates little to no interest (compared to 1.4) and my time is limited to a few hours each week I will let this endeavour go into hiatus for now. I hope that 1.4 will also fit my requirements :-)

So here's the reason I thought doing a rebase was necessary and a fork might not have done the trick (for me).
* usability of the UI is awful. After 2 years of using MT on average every 2 weeks I still manage to screw up my maps by either accidentally revealing too much fog, draw or erase all over the place and stuff happens on the wrong layer. Then I need to redo things (while players wait). When switching maps (possibly because they are of vastly different size) they center on the most obscure places. And more. Thus, I would like these features that distinguish MT to become clearer to use or that key-codes and mouse-codes become configurable, so I can do so myself. (Note that this is not only my view on MT. And importing a huge macro-lib may aid - I haven't tried - but shouldn't really be necessary.)
* Introducing my own stuff. I have campaign data lying around in some XML/webserver format that I serve to players' clients. I would like to convert such things automatically (with minor developer effort). Currently all attempts to create even simple tokens have failed miserably, there are internal restrictions that crash the campaigns I bring them into. Thus the data model (format) must be consistent and not have hidden restrictions. (The current is not.)
* I'd like to add new features as a developer relatively simple. Auto-create maps, auto-detect vision blocking, etc. Currently, I can either fork or wait. (I lost the first version of auto-detect in MT, because the code base moved on and I wanted to contribute some more patches.)

So while all the SQL/sound/isometric stuff sounds interesting, they are not even nice-to-have, but nice-to-ignore for me presently. This is not to demean the work done and attempted currently in any way - on the contrary, I applaud the diligence, with which e.g. Lee is working on issues. Probably some people want these things badly. I am just explaining what I think and what MT would do, if I had a magic wand.

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Re: RPTools "next" Git Repository

Post by wolph42 »

username wrote:I have added a few pieces and made the UI a (small) bit more userfriendly yesterday.

I have been following the discussions regarding forks etc in other threads. Seeing that 2.0 generates little to no interest (compared to 1.4) and my time is limited to a few hours each week I will let this endeavour go into hiatus for now. I hope that 1.4 will also fit my requirements :-)

So here's the reason I thought doing a rebase was necessary and a fork might not have done the trick (for me).
* usability of the UI is awful. After 2 years of using MT on average every 2 weeks I still manage to screw up my maps by either accidentally revealing too much fog, draw or erase all over the place and stuff happens on the wrong layer. Then I need to redo things (while players wait). When switching maps (possibly because they are of vastly different size) they center on the most obscure places. And more. Thus, I would like these features that distinguish MT to become clearer to use or that key-codes and mouse-codes become configurable, so I can do so myself. (Note that this is not only my view on MT. And importing a huge macro-lib may aid - I haven't tried - but shouldn't really be necessary.)
* Introducing my own stuff. I have campaign data lying around in some XML/webserver format that I serve to players' clients. I would like to convert such things automatically (with minor developer effort). Currently all attempts to create even simple tokens have failed miserably, there are internal restrictions that crash the campaigns I bring them into. Thus the data model (format) must be consistent and not have hidden restrictions. (The current is not.)
* I'd like to add new features as a developer relatively simple. Auto-create maps, auto-detect vision blocking, etc. Currently, I can either fork or wait. (I lost the first version of auto-detect in MT, because the code base moved on and I wanted to contribute some more patches.)

So while all the SQL/sound/isometric stuff sounds interesting, they are not even nice-to-have, but nice-to-ignore for me presently. This is not to demean the work done and attempted currently in any way - on the contrary, I applaud the diligence, with which e.g. Lee is working on issues. Probably some people want these things badly. I am just explaining what I think and what MT would do, if I had a magic wand.
Sorry to hear that 2.0 is grinding to a halt. Fortunately the branching is active. It still find it a petty that there is so little collaboration between the separate branches, but from what I understood, this is the side effect of the feature lock-down and centralizing control over maptool. Funny cause I'm in favor of centralized control with satellites (developers) throwing in all kinds of new features.

Anyway, it is as it is. Some remarks:
- 'UI': yes the layer interface sucks balls. My main concern though is a simple 'bug' that keeps resetting the 'current layer' when you do certain stuff. E.g. Go to BG layer --> toggle VBL view --> untoggle VBL --> layer is reset to token. So a make-over in that area is most welcome.
- centering on 'weird places'... actually MT quite consistently centres the map at the 0,0 coordinate...or... sets the 0,0 coordinate in the upper left corner (not sure, but its one of the two). The point is: if you don't know that then yes you get the most weird map starts-ups.
Obviously it would be better if it e.g. loads where you last were.
- 'configurable keys': cewl idea...but dangerous, this can lead to a LOT of confusion. I would guess that the configuration would be local only (not server), which means that there could be potentially quite a bit of misunderstanding. IMO the keys should be as close as possible to the 'standards' (e.g. meta+s for save, meta+c for copy, but also ctrl+a for select all) with the necessary exceptions to what makes a VTT unique. (like the confusion over right and left mouse button in relation to google maps. The fact is is that google maps does NOT have tokens that you move around. Which differentiates MT quite a bit from GM).
-'Currently, I can either fork or wait.' : as you have been following the discussions with the 'forks' you could consider teaming up with
= lord.ashes
= virenerus
= lee
= jamztheman
although from Lee I understood that he already has a working team with a roadmap and he's currently not 'hiring' :P
Still a petty as all the above have a vision of what MT *should* have (in the immediate future) and although there is some overlap, most of you are saying different things. Which is GREAT! (in theory) as it means that you have quite a bit of people all willing to work on different things! But apparently no one is willing to take charge in this.

anyway, good to hear you're still on it!

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Re: RPTools "next" Git Repository

Post by Lee »

@username Well, I think it's great you're keeping things going for 2.0, and should still keep at it. When I first came into the community, I've always admired your contributions, and while I may not agree with everything you've said, these views were all well thought out, and delivered.

I'd like to think that I do my part for it as well (i.e. 2.0 modules/components that can work in 1.3 today), but I got a long time ago that a lot of people were skeptical at best in terms of execution, whenever I pipe in with an idea, so I did what I do best: rolled my own way. You'll be glad to know that the UI was the first thing I made easier to use. I'm almost done porting just about everything from the Preferences API to AC Configuration, and plan to weed out, bit by bit, the messy control scheme in order to have a configurable master map of controls. But it IS a mess, so I'm touching that quite a bit further down the line.

I respect your opinion about the additional features. Indeed, I put those in because I subscribe to the belief that one man's garbage is another man's treasure :lol: Only time will tell if anyone makes anything out of these. We'll see.

@wolph (and a bit of username's comments as well)
If there is anything in common between we who have forked the code is, we just "do", and talk along the way. I understand as well as anyone that the best designs come from careful planning, and if ever 2.0 comes around, it will definitely show there.

I agree we all have differing viewpoints, and, in my case, I'm too far ahead to stop and consider the newer inputs. Besides, with differing viewpoints, we will (likely) have what has brought the most delays to 2.0: lengthy discussions, when there's very little time to do anything else. Moreover, we also have different scales of how far we want to take this, not to mention our philosophies are also quite different. For example, backwards compatibility; one wants to scrap macro script while the other is conscious about keeping it, going as far as to write a simple plugin system so that stuff made can cross over nicely. Who wins out? Both do as they'll go their own separate ways.

I'm not tooting my own horn or anything, but I'm gunning for bigger ideals, and I believe I design with the big picture in mind. There are simply too many new (and modernized) VTTs for MapTool to stand on its merits and be considered in the top 3, anymore; powerful scripting, vision, and everything else considering. I believe everything starts with fostering a healthy development community (not the actual source, but in-game content), and a large consumer base.

The healthiest dev community should encompass the works made through macro script, and the ones made by future scripters who can use another language. Whatever others might say, Oracle chose Javascript to be the one their Java tech plays nice with, and will certainly be the language of choice for the HMTL/CSS/JS crowd.

The consumer base will only flock to where great content is easily found and put together. As powerful as MT is, it doesn't quite offer this. I think I saw a post a few days ago where someone was pointing a free tileset, and someone else said that it was great and we should tell dorpond about it so he can upload it to wherever MT's accessible image assets are hosted. If, for example, I were a content creator who wants to reach out to as large an audience as I can, would this be the setting that I want my work to be initially displayed? Of course not. IIRC, that tile set trickled down from a Roll20 user's post.

Not to mention, while a lot consider it fluff, audio assets and the ability to play them, when available, will definitely be used. If one VTT offers it and the other doesn't, users who just want a mat to play on and don't care much for automation, will choose the VTT with the sound feature over the one that has the powerful script engine 10 times out of 10.

With that being said, what do we do? I know there are quite a number of people here that (respectfully) disagree with my method of executing my "vision" (i.e. crowdfunding), and their silence is notable, but I don't see a better way to make a bigger, and lasting impact than making people invest on an idea, and have expectations that their investments will be returned. Anything else in the realm of production is just a hobby, and will always be in danger of being set aside for something more important. Bottom line, if die-hard fans of this VTT want its (re-)ascendance, it won't come through the current volunteer system, regardless of how skilled the team behind it is. I am confident enough to say this: If an MT fork does well and is on par with what's hot right now, then people will be more than willing to wait for the real next-gen release.

Anyway, in my defense, I was "hiring" when I first started out, just like the other people working on the forks mentioned here. Like them, the response was (forgive the word) tepid. Things took a life on its own, and my team and I recognize it was an opportunity for us to finally work together professionally.

This'll be the first I'll mention this, but my development group and I have bigger plans beyond Mote (the name of my fork). We're investing 1 to 2 years to make good on our promise of a mature, and modern VTT, with a thriving community of users, developers (framework, not source), and content creators, all connected with no middle-man in between, after which we'll open the source, and move on to our enterprise targets (i.e. different industries). Sure, we'll be asking for support to do this full-time during the period, but our real compensation is the rewards we reap from a great reputation, if we pull this off well. So, with such stakes and rewards, you can see why we don't just "hire" anyone who comes along :)

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Re: RPTools "next" Git Repository

Post by wolph42 »

Nice pitch! As I've mentioned before, you have my support! If not only because you are willing to support the old script and thus keep present content in game (and their devs) while broadening the possibilities.

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Re: RPTools "next" Git Repository

Post by username »

wolph42 wrote: Sorry to hear that 2.0 is grinding to a halt. Fortunately the branching is active. It still find it a petty that there is so little collaboration between the separate branches, but from what I understood, this is the side effect of the feature lock-down and centralizing control over maptool. Funny cause I'm in favor of centralized control with satellites (developers) throwing in all kinds of new features.
I do not speak for 2.0, but as far as I know, I was the only one working on it after Craig left his parser behind.
wolph42 wrote: - centering on 'weird places'... actually MT quite consistently centres the map at the 0,0 coordinate...or... sets the 0,0 coordinate in the upper left corner (not sure, but its one of the two). The point is: if you don't know that then yes you get the most weird map starts-ups.
Whenever I start a server it bounces me around, whenever someone connects, it bounces the map around again. I also think the coordinates in old maps may be changing with the addition of new maps. I haven't really tried to reproduce it but rather learned to live with it.
wolph42 wrote: - 'configurable keys': cewl idea...but dangerous, this can lead to a LOT of confusion. I would guess that the configuration would be local only (not server), which means that there could be potentially quite a bit of misunderstanding. IMO the keys should be as close as possible to the 'standards' (e.g. meta+s for save, meta+c for copy, but also ctrl+a for select all) with the necessary exceptions to what makes a VTT unique. (like the confusion over right and left mouse button in relation to google maps. The fact is is that google maps does NOT have tokens that you move around. Which differentiates MT quite a bit from GM).
Sigh, this never gets old. I am working with emacs a lot and you wouldn't imagine how often I banged my head when "C-w" or "C-x u" would wreck havok in other programs. "C-c" and "C-z" bring fun the other way. Of course, xfig, gimp, acroread, and Google have different ways of working with a mouse. There is no solution to this, let alone an easy one. I'd cherish something, where I can disable the "dangerous" things. Did I mention the way the X11 text-buffer work?
wolph42 wrote: But apparently no one is willing to take charge in this.
At this point I would say, nobody is able to do so anymore. The people with sufficient authority have faded or are fading. If Lee comes around with a decent version and a sufficiently open one this may become a new era.
Lee wrote: Not to mention, while a lot consider it fluff, audio assets and the ability to play them, when available, will definitely be used. If one VTT offers it and the other doesn't, users who just want a mat to play on and don't care much for automation, will choose the VTT with the sound feature over the one that has the powerful script engine 10 times out of 10.
The wording is chosen wisely. People will choose by that but they will not use it. At least not 10 out of 10. And I would choose a powerful scripting engine over sound any time (but I'm not 1 out of 10). I still have all those "non-euclidean" dungeon crawls hanging around from when I was young. <philosophy>When looking back, I find that the tools we have, shape the maps we design.</philosphy>
Lee wrote: ... So, with such stakes and rewards, you can see why we don't just "hire" anyone who comes along :)
Well, I hadn't considered myself to be just anyone who comes along, you know :lol: Luckily, I am in the position of not having to drive the stakes so high. I'll keep at it with a couple of hours a week and possibly some more 2.0 code will drop out of it. I do learn from it. But I cannot compete with a team of professionals working (semi-)full-time on MT 1.4.

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Re: RPTools "next" Git Repository

Post by wolph42 »

I get your point with the 'standard' keys. There are some though. I don't really have an answer beyond what I already said. Maybe you're right and maybe it wil lead to confusion and maybe both...

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