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Demigod
 
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2007 11:53 am
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 Post subject: My Maptool Dream.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 11:08 pm 
I've been messing around with Tabletop Simulator a bit lately and it's hard to shake how cool it would be if there was something that had the 3d map and physics of Tabletop Simulator and all the VTT functionality and scripting support of Maptool.

Check out this video: https://youtu.be/jtsPXM-OzpE?t=6m0s

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 Post subject: Re: My Maptool Dream.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:44 am 
I think playing a game with virtual dice would drive me potty ;)


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 Post subject: Re: My Maptool Dream.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:02 pm 
Jagged wrote:
I think playing a game with virtual dice would drive me potty ;)

While I think the dice physics are pretty exceptional, it's the physics of everything else that's really fun to use. Not to mention being able to whirl the camera around the table, zoom in to a nearly first-person view of things from tokens, etc. Tabletop Simulator really does an amazing job of simulating the tabletop experience unlike anything else out there... It would be very hard to give up the game management that I've heaped on my MT framework at this point... but if I was playing a simpler RPG, I'd be all over using TTS.

I just wish I could get the best of both worlds...

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 Post subject: Re: My Maptool Dream.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:22 pm 
Full Bleed wrote:
Jagged wrote:
I think playing a game with virtual dice would drive me potty ;)

While I think the dice physics are pretty exceptional, it's the physics of everything else that's really fun to use. Not to mention being able to whirl the camera around the table, zoom in to a nearly first-person view of things from tokens, etc. Tabletop Simulator really does an amazing job of simulating the tabletop experience unlike anything else out there... It would be very hard to give up the game management that I've heaped on my MT framework at this point... but if I was playing a simpler RPG, I'd be all over using TTS.

I just wish I could get the best of both worlds...


Watching the video, it's too much like a video game for me. If I want to play a video game, I'll play a video game. If I want to play a multi-player video game, I'll play a multi-player video game. There are far better examples out there.

This is my opinion only. Clearly, there are others out there who feel otherwise.

(Their price is low enough I'd be tempted to buy it just to play around, but apparently, there's no way to get it without Steam, and I refuse to install Steam on my computer. They have too long a history of updates that mess up computers, even to the point of not being able to boot.)


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 Post subject: Re: My Maptool Dream.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:28 pm 
taustinoc wrote:
Watching the video, it's too much like a video game for me. If I want to play a video game, I'll play a video game. If I want to play a multi-player video game, I'll play a multi-player video game. There are far better examples out there.

It's really not like a video game at all... It has no AI. Unless you equate "being close to real life" as being a video game (i.e. I can pick up a token and throw it across the table if I want, knocking other things over.)

Quote:
(Their price is low enough I'd be tempted to buy it just to play around, but apparently, there's no way to get it without Steam, and I refuse to install Steam on my computer. They have too long a history of updates that mess up computers, even to the point of not being able to boot.)

Funny you should mention that... I feel nearly the same way about Steam... since it wants to be on all the time and I'm fairly certain it's basically spyware (like *everything* else these days.) But this thing got me to install it (I don't have it load on startup and I close it down when I'm not using TTS). The reason for it is so that you can access their "Workshop" which is, essentially, shared Steam cloud storage where you can download thousands of assets and prepared games/tables. Don't let the DLC fool you. There is a ridiculous amount stuff you can instantly import into TTS for free.

For example, lets say you'd like to have some tokens from the Pathfinder NPC Codex... wouldn't you know it, someone has already prepared 348 virtual pawns, ready to go (i.e. everything in that book).

Maybe you want to use 3d tokens instead... look up "Miniatures" and be wowed. One 5e Miniature table alone has 300+ 3d minis to use. Want to drop some trees... no problem finding tons of models, etc. Heck, in that past people have worried that if MT was 3d the problem would be assets for 3d usage... not a problem with TTS since it uses the Steam workshop.

In fact, here is the current listing of stuff in the workshop:

Board Games (6,731)
Card Games (5,743)
Strategy Games (4,757)
Trading Card Games (1,419)
Role-playing Games (2,548)
Original Games (1,586)
Dungeons (1,383)
Backgrounds (784)
Custom Models (3,822)
Templates (867)
Scripting (764)
Misc (3,432)

Each of those is, typically, a "table" of user created/adapted stuff. Like the "table" of pawns I was talking about above. The community creations and assets sharing there is insane.

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Maptool is the Millennium Falcon of VTT's -- "She may not look like much, but she's got it where it counts."


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Joined: Mon Aug 03, 2015 5:30 pm
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 Post subject: Re: My Maptool Dream.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:51 am 
Full Bleed wrote:
It's really not like a video game at all... It has no AI. Unless you equate "being close to real life" as being a video game (i.e. I can pick up a token and throw it across the table if I want, knocking other things over.)


The problem is, it feels (to me) like a video game, without doing any of the things that video games do that tabletop games don't. And I'm not really a big fan of first person shooters (which is what it invokes for me) to begin with. Yeah, it's pretty, but it's more flash than function.

Full Bleed wrote:
Funny you should mention that... I feel nearly the same way about Steam... since it wants to be on all the time and I'm fairly certain it's basically spyware (like *everything* else these days.)


How spyware-ish it is depends on how recently they've been caught. I don't actually object to the spyware behavior so much as their ineptness at it. They break things, and I have no willingness to reinstall Windows on a regular basis over a game. (I know maybe 3 or 4 people who game on Steam regularly. One of them has his computer crash, and has to reinstall Windows, on a regular basis. Part of it is that he's not the most tech savvy guy in the world, but I'm convinced the main problem is Steam conflicting with some kind of hardware drivers.)

Full Bleed wrote:
But this thing got me to install it (I don't have it load on startup and I close it down when I'm not using TTS). The reason for it is so that you can access their "Workshop" which is, essentially, shared Steam cloud storage where you can download thousands of assets and prepared games/tables.


I was wondering how much stuff is available. I'm guessing they use some kind of standard 3D model format, making it easy for fans to generate stuff. It does look interesting, but I don't need it, and even if I did, I'd still be unwilling to install Steam.


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 Post subject: Re: My Maptool Dream.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:30 pm 
In terms of looking like a video game, I think this one probably goes the furthest: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/10 ... escription Nevertheless, it looks pretty awesome to me. First-person 3d perspective with VR? Sick. If there is still a DM adjudicating what you can do and you can do anything you can imagine, it is sufficiently a tabletop RPG in my mind. Would be amazing if you could combine this with maptool framework/macros/etc.


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 Post subject: Re: My Maptool Dream.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:44 pm 
taustinoc wrote:
They break things, and I have no willingness to reinstall Windows on a regular basis over a game. (I know maybe 3 or 4 people who game on Steam regularly. One of them has his computer crash, and has to reinstall Windows, on a regular basis. Part of it is that he's not the most tech savvy guy in the world, but I'm convinced the main problem is Steam conflicting with some kind of hardware drivers.)

I keep a rock solid system and would not tolerate any weirdness going on (i.e. if something odd started happening I'd be all over finding both the cause and the fix asap.) And while I've not had this installed long enough to provide much of a data point, I can say that I've not experienced any change in the stability or performance of my system. If I do, and I find Steam to be the culprit, I'll be sure to update. That said, I'm really not a big gamer though, so I'm not likely to provide much of a stress test for it.

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 Post subject: Re: My Maptool Dream.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:03 pm 
paulstrait wrote:
In terms of looking like a video game, I think this one probably goes the furthest: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/10 ... escription Nevertheless, it looks pretty awesome to me. First-person 3d perspective with VR? Sick. If there is still a DM adjudicating what you can do and you can do anything you can imagine, it is sufficiently a tabletop RPG in my mind. Would be amazing if you could combine this with maptool framework/macros/etc.

That is interesting... though I have to wonder if it will ever come to market, how difficult building the encounters would be, and how easily the tabletop game would translate to it.

But, speaking of VR tableop gaming... TTS has VR support for the Vive *right now*: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wm3tX1bFavw

Here is a video of how easy it is to build a pretty detailed camp for a VR type encounter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAiKoK7iTIE

The entry costs for VR tabletop RPGing is still pretty high... and I'd rather use some sporadic 3d assets and just have a "heightened" virtual table top experience, not the full monty like in these vids, but the option is there.

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Dragon
 
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2009 4:51 am
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 Post subject: Re: My Maptool Dream.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 5:27 am 
I'd love to see a 3D Maptool but I wouldn't need the physics engine, just the graphics engine. Can't see a reason to be able to accurately throw objects in the space, unless you also want to model player tantrums. :wink:

The third dimension would remove one of the weaknesses of MT, which is being able to handle height and height based line of sight obstacles.

Full Bleed wrote:
Want to drop some trees... no problem finding tons of models, etc. Heck, in that past people have worried that if MT was 3d the problem would be assets for 3d usage... not a problem with TTS since it uses the Steam workshop.


That's always been what I thought would be the major impediment to a successful 3D Maptool. The availability of resources. It's a fair amount of work to produce 2D games and 3D is exponentially worse, because the entry requirements of 3D art are far and above 2D. But if there is indeed a large library of resources already available....


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 Post subject: Re: My Maptool Dream.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 9:29 am 
metatheurgist wrote:
I'd love to see a 3D Maptool but I wouldn't need the physics engine, just the graphics engine. Can't see a reason to be able to accurately throw objects in the space, unless you also want to model player tantrums. :wink:

Well if you ever get to try it out you'll see that there is something kind of "tactile" with the physics. You can "toss" cards and they land and slide realistically, knock over tokens that are "killed" or prone, bounce dice off objects, etc. Everything just kind of feels more "real" when you're picking things up and moving them around and they have some virtual weight to them.

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 Post subject: Re: My Maptool Dream.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 3:13 pm 
Full Bleed wrote:
paulstrait wrote:
In terms of looking like a video game, I think this one probably goes the furthest: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/10 ... escription Nevertheless, it looks pretty awesome to me. First-person 3d perspective with VR? Sick. If there is still a DM adjudicating what you can do and you can do anything you can imagine, it is sufficiently a tabletop RPG in my mind. Would be amazing if you could combine this with maptool framework/macros/etc.

That is interesting... though I have to wonder if it will ever come to market, how difficult building the encounters would be, and how easily the tabletop game would translate to it.

But, speaking of VR tableop gaming... TTS has VR support for the Vive *right now*: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wm3tX1bFavw

Here is a video of how easy it is to build a pretty detailed camp for a VR type encounter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAiKoK7iTIE

The entry costs for VR tabletop RPGing is still pretty high... and I'd rather use some sporadic 3d assets and just have a "heightened" virtual table top experience, not the full monty like in these vids, but the option is there.


Yeah that's pretty sick. Besides the macro/framework stuff, which is certainly the most important issue, I have over the last decade accumulated a pretty vast library of 2d overhead images. And while I'm no artist, in a pinch I can create my own pretty easily. So the availability of 3d assets, and an easy, preferably open-source, way to edit/modify them, would be key. It would be cool if you could alternate between 3d and 2d -- sometimes all you really need is a black and white map, but sometimes if the terrain is particularly interesting, and you have the right assets, much more detail would be nice. Ideally, it would be cool if maps in maptool could have a 3d option (kind of like the way isometric was added, although obviously the two aren't really comparable in terms of complexity). I could do without the gamey things -- dice, character sheets, an actual wooden table that stuff is sitting on, etc. -- since that seems to me to be stuck in the old model of using a VTT to replicate (imperfectly) the physical tabletop experience, rather than focus on its own unique capabilities and possibilities. This in my mind is part of why maptool is so superior to fantasy grounds. They can eventually add whatever features, but philosophically, they don't really get what a VTT is all about, in my view at least.


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 Post subject: Re: My Maptool Dream.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 1:55 pm 
paulstrait wrote:
I could do without the gamey things -- dice, character sheets, an actual wooden table that stuff is sitting on, etc. -- since that seems to me to be stuck in the old model of using a VTT to replicate (imperfectly) the physical tabletop experience, rather than focus on its own unique capabilities and possibilities. This in my mind is part of why maptool is so superior to fantasy grounds. They can eventually add whatever features, but philosophically, they don't really get what a VTT is all about, in my view at least.

The features other VTT's are missing in comparison to MT is almost always justified with a "you can't do that at a table so you don't need that in a VTT". That said, it's not like there weren't people using MT that have said those things early in it's development. And, as expected, as other VTT's slowly adopt more of those missing features... those deniers tend to come around.

I guess for anyone not holding their VTT to a higher standard... for justifying a VTT not living up to MT's capabilities... for only needing to do what you can do at a table... then I think Tabletop Simulator is nearly perfect for that mentality and style of play. I've actually thought about running an oldskool 1e/2e game on it. It is, hands down, the absolute BEST "Tabletop Simulator" I've ever used (they couldn't have picked a more obvious name). It's head's and tails better than *any* VTT for delivering a game in a purely "table top" method.

That said, it's only taking itty bitty baby steps towards have some pretty basic VTT abilities (they just updated their turn-tracker so it has more RPG friendly functionality). They have a FoW tool, but it's primitive and borderline annoying. No LoS/Vision. Not token states. Their scripting isn't really built around token manipulation and/or dynamic data storage/retrieval. You can use an in-app browser window, which is nifty, but that falls short of being able to custom build dialog/frames in MT. It's has a great base to work with... but has a long way to go to compete with some of the most basic VTT staples...

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Maptool is the Millennium Falcon of VTT's -- "She may not look like much, but she's got it where it counts."


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 Post subject: Re: My Maptool Dream.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:59 pm 
Full Bleed wrote:
taustinoc wrote:
Watching the video, it's too much like a video game for me. If I want to play a video game, I'll play a video game. If I want to play a multi-player video game, I'll play a multi-player video game. There are far better examples out there.

It's really not like a video game at all... It has no AI. Unless you equate "being close to real life" as being a video game (i.e. I can pick up a token and throw it across the table if I want, knocking other things over.)

Quote:
(Their price is low enough I'd be tempted to buy it just to play around, but apparently, there's no way to get it without Steam, and I refuse to install Steam on my computer. They have too long a history of updates that mess up computers, even to the point of not being able to boot.)

Funny you should mention that... I feel nearly the same way about Steam... since it wants to be on all the time and I'm fairly certain it's basically spyware (like *everything* else these days.) But this thing got me to install it (I don't have it load on startup and I close it down when I'm not using TTS). The reason for it is so that you can access their "Workshop" which is, essentially, shared Steam cloud storage where you can download thousands of assets and prepared games/tables. Don't let the DLC fool you. There is a ridiculous amount stuff you can instantly import into TTS for free.

For example, lets say you'd like to have some tokens from the Pathfinder NPC Codex... wouldn't you know it, someone has already prepared 348 virtual pawns, ready to go (i.e. everything in that book).

Maybe you want to use 3d tokens instead... look up "Miniatures" and be wowed. One 5e Miniature table alone has 300+ 3d minis to use. Want to drop some trees... no problem finding tons of models, etc. Heck, in that past people have worried that if MT was 3d the problem would be assets for 3d usage... not a problem with TTS since it uses the Steam workshop.

In fact, here is the current listing of stuff in the workshop:

Board Games (6,731)
Card Games (5,743)
Strategy Games (4,757)
Trading Card Games (1,419)
Role-playing Games (2,548)
Original Games (1,586)
Dungeons (1,383)
Backgrounds (784)
Custom Models (3,822)
Templates (867)
Scripting (764)
Misc (3,432)

Each of those is, typically, a "table" of user created/adapted stuff. Like the "table" of pawns I was talking about above. The community creations and assets sharing there is insane.


In the links provided, does this include tokens to add to your virtual maptool resource library as well? I just want to clarify before I purchase this because I also own this box physically.


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 Post subject: Re: My Maptool Dream.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 12:30 am 
TracerKaosuichi wrote:
In the links provided, does this include tokens to add to your virtual maptool resource library as well? I just want to clarify before I purchase this because I also own this box physically.

No. All of that was exclusively for Tabletop Simulator.

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