Selecting Object and Hidden Tokens from Token Layer.

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Full Bleed
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Selecting Object and Hidden Tokens from Token Layer.

Post by Full Bleed »

So, we can kind of "soft select" Objects and Hidden tokens while on the token layer (it triggers a display of their Player and GM notes.) So I take it that while on the Token Layer there is some programatic visibility of object and hidden tokens.

But, as far as I know, if I wanted to "soft select" them and then try to change their name, layer, or edit them with other functions I can't until I switch to their layer and "hard select" them.

Is there any way around that?

And, if not, is there a compelling reason not to allow GM's to "hard select" them while on the Token Layer so we can manipulate them more easily?

Switching layers to get at Object and Hidden tokens has always been kind of annoying: Click on something and see that it's non-reactive, switch to the Hidden layer, go back and click on it only to realize that it must be on the Object Layer, switch layer again, go back and click on it, make edits... and then, of course, forget to switch back to the token layer with your next selection, etc.

I don't so much care if I can move them if I'm not on their layer (that would be another discussion), but I would like to be able to get at them and access and modify them more easily.
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Re: Selecting Object and Hidden Tokens from Token Layer.

Post by aliasmask »

I hot key to switch layers could be useful as well. Something as simple as ctrl click to select a token not on current layer would be useful as well.

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Re: Selecting Object and Hidden Tokens from Token Layer.

Post by Full Bleed »

aliasmask wrote:I hot key to switch layers could be useful as well. Something as simple as ctrl click to select a token not on current layer would be useful as well.
I don't use a lot of hotkeys myself (particularly during a game), but for those who do I could see that being a nice shortcut for their workflow.

I'm actually trying to build a more user-friendly GM interface for prepping maps and tokens for sessions... and, consequently, accessing them during a session when you're trying to get at and deploy information quickly and smoothly.

For example, MTs ability to show notes of Objects or Hidden layer while on the Token Layer is great since it allows users to click-through the Token Layer. But if I want to get at the information or do something with it via macro it takes extra steps and clicking around. And if I want to hide information tokens that reside on the Object Layer until I'm ready to show them, I have to set them as not "Visible to Players" and then, during a game, I have to:

1) Change Layer>Select Token>Context Menu>Right Click>Edit>Config Tab>"Visible to Players" Check Box
2) Change Layer>Select Token>Double Click for Token Edit>Config Tab>"Visible to Players" Check Box
3) Change Layer>Select Token>Run Macro to Change Visibility

For me, option 3 is the best, but the process is a speed-bump that I'm not sure needs to be there... especially since doing the above still requires switching off the Layer to get back to the layer most of the action is on.

And if I start with Tokens on the Hidden Layer, I still have to get at them and get them off the Hidden Layer so that they can become more interactable.

It's just seems like a whole lot of poking around when a simple "select and run macro" on target would be much nicer.

I was hoping that there was some trick I didn't know about to easily run a macro on an Object or Hidden Layer token from the Token Layer...
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Re: Selecting Object and Hidden Tokens from Token Layer.

Post by Phergus »

I agree that some things need to be easier to accomplish from the GMs side. Switching layers back and forth to hide/reveal items can certainly be annoying and disruptive to the flow of the game.

A Ctrl-Click option to select a stamp on the Object or Hidden layers and change to that layer would be a convenient way to do it.

One workaround that I use fairly regularly is to use the Map Explorer window. Double-click on an object there and the Object Layer becomes active. Double-click again and that object is selected such that macros on it can be run from the Selected window. Fairly quick and easy if not perfect.

I also put macros on non-visible tokens that modify objects. I put the small "operator" tokens near the object(s) inside a wall space or other area of the map the players can't see but as it is a token I can quickly click on it and then click on a macro button to change the visibility or layer of the pre-programmed object.

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Re: Selecting Object and Hidden Tokens from Token Layer.

Post by Full Bleed »

Phergus wrote:I agree that some things need to be easier to accomplish from the GMs side. Switching layers back and forth to hide/reveal items can certainly be annoying and disruptive to the flow of the game.

A Ctrl-Click option to select a stamp on the Object or Hidden layers and change to that layer would be a convenient way to do it.
Do you think it would be a problem to just allow macros to be run on non-active layer tokens that are "soft-selected" without needing to do something like a Ctrl-Click? Or just allowing us to double click on a token to Select it on another layer? (This could continue to bring up Token Editing if you're already on the layer.) Just seems like we don't have to involve the keyboard to address the issue.

I run a "Control Sheet" (a GM character sheet) during my games and it's really helps with the game flow... having to Ctrl-Click on tokens to get at them would still be less than optimal.
One workaround that I use fairly regularly is to use the Map Explorer window. Double-click on an object there and the Object Layer becomes active. Double-click again and that object is selected such that macros on it can be run from the Selected window. Fairly quick and easy if not perfect.
Ok, this is a good tip and the kind of hidden functionality I was looking for (and not thinking much about.) *But* it will require that I have the Map Explorer open all the time... and since I have the Init Window, Chat, Selection, and my Control sheet already open... I'm already down to only having about 40% of the screen for the map. I'd probably have to give up another 10% and get used to selecting things through it instead of on the map... and change how I name information and location tokens so that they sort in a more usable fashion (right now I deploy semi-transparent numbers for rooms and name them for the room... I'd have to add a number to the front of the room name like "05-Tomb" instead of just "Tomb".) Hmmm... not sure the trade-offs are worth it.
I also put macros on non-visible tokens that modify objects. I put the small "operator" tokens near the object(s) inside a wall space or other area of the map the players can't see but as it is a token I can quickly click on it and then click on a macro button to change the visibility or layer of the pre-programmed object.
This is an interesting idea. Two tokens for one object but I could get used to it.

I've actually been experimenting with using the label field to classify token types ("Info" for information/location tokens, "Event" for Event tokens, "DT" for Difficult Terrain Tokens, etc.) that I could display on my Control Sheet (sort of like a homemade Map Explorer for specific types of tokens.) I could make it default to a Map Explorer mode when I don't have a token layer token selected...

Anyway, those are some good thoughts to get me thinking about some custom solutions... thanks.

But still trying to figure out what it would break to just let us (GMs) select Hidden and Object Tokens through the Token Layer...
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Re: Selecting Object and Hidden Tokens from Token Layer.

Post by Phergus »

Full Bleed wrote:Do you think it would be a problem to just allow macros to be run on non-active layer tokens that are "soft-selected" without needing to do something like a Ctrl-Click? Or just allowing us to double click on a token to Select it on another layer? (This could continue to bring up Token Editing if you're already on the layer.) Just seems like we don't have to involve the keyboard to address the issue.
I'm fairly certain that in order to run macros on non-active layer tokens that they would have to be actually selected in order for commands like getSelected() or the macro option "Apply to Selected" to work. I believe using a double-click instead of a ctrl-click to select tokens on the Hidden/Object layer could work I just have concerns that while granting a GM easier access to those tokens it also makes it easier to mess up in the middle of a session.

Then there is the issue of how do you multi-select tokens on a different layer. Seems like if you need to quickly run a macro on an object during a game session then there are most likely also times when you need to do it on several objects at once.

There is a finite set of ways to indicate some action with the mouse alone and adding a qualifier key expands those options. But I get the objection. A lot of people like to do everything with the mouse including most of my players. Me, I love hotkeys and keyboard/mouse combos.
Full Bleed wrote:
Phergus wrote:One workaround that I use fairly regularly is to use the Map Explorer window.
Ok, this is a good tip and the kind of hidden functionality I was looking for (and not thinking much about.) *But* it will require that I have the Map Explorer open all the time... and since I have the Init Window, Chat, Selection, and my Control sheet already open... I'm already down to only having about 40% of the screen for the map. I'd probably have to give up another 10% and get used to selecting things through it instead of on the map...
I hear that. I'm already looking at swapping out my perfectly good 2560x1440 monitor for a 4K so that I have more real estate to run MT in. But, yeah, to make the best use of Map Explorer you have to adopt a token naming system that helps you out there.
Full Bleed wrote:I've actually been experimenting with using the label field to classify token types ("Info" for information/location tokens, "Event" for Event tokens, "DT" for Difficult Terrain Tokens, etc.) that I could display on my Control Sheet (sort of like a homemade Map Explorer for specific types of tokens.) I could make it default to a Map Explorer mode when I don't have a token layer token selected...
That's an interesting idea. I may have to steal that. Currently I rarely use the label field but this has potential.
Full Bleed wrote:But still trying to figure out what it would break to just let us (GMs) select Hidden and Object Tokens through the Token Layer...
Not so much break as make the interface less intuitive perhaps or, worse, more difficult for new GMs to pick up. Still, it is worth giving it some thought.

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Re: Selecting Object and Hidden Tokens from Token Layer.

Post by Full Bleed »

Phergus wrote:Not so much break as make the interface less intuitive perhaps or, worse, more difficult for new GMs to pick up. Still, it is worth giving it some thought.
This, of course, is at the cruxt of the discussion.

Is, as a GM, being able to select items on all layers without doing the layer-dance "unintuitive"?

We can already "soft click" on items on other layers to get them to react (show Player and GM Notes in a pop-up.) Though, of course, this is a feature that many don't know about until they start using the notes sections and then--likely by accident--click on the non-active layer tokens (i.e. it can't be argued that this is an "intuitive" feature if being able to select items wholesale isn't.) So MT already has, "through-layer" interaction with objects on other layers. It's just limited in it's usefulness--in particular, in its ability to run campaign macros, character sheet macros, or macros from impersonated/selected tokens on them without playing with the layers. Is it more intuitive that we can't do that easily?

For me, it really goes to usability. I can learn functionality (like putting notes on a token and moving it to the object layer to give click-and-popup access.) But, usability really affects how I use the program. For example, I tend NOT to use the hidden layer because getting things to it and off it is a pain. Since it's not inherently obvious what's on the Hidden layer until you realize you can't select it, it's easier toggle visibility by:

Double Click>Config>Toggle "Visible to Players"

than it is to:

Leave Token After you realize you can't access it to Switch Layer>Return to Token>Right Click>Change (Layer) to XXX>Switch Layer (Again)>Go back to Token>Then Go Switch Back to the Token Layer

In both cases above I'd rather just select the token, run a Wiki: setLayer() macro to change its layer and go on with my business.


MT's layers don't perform all of the same functions of editing software so I don't think it should be beholden to the exact same model. In MT they impose certain behaviours and help organize assets. But I just don't see making them more difficult to access and use as needing to be one of those features.

As for intuition, when you select Hidden and Object tokens the selection box is a different color. That's intuitive enough for me to know that I don't have a token object selected.
Then there is the issue of how do you multi-select tokens on a different layer. Seems like if you need to quickly run a macro on an object during a game session then there are most likely also times when you need to do it on several objects at once.
I thought about that. And we're really talking about Manual Multi-Select (as opposed to macros selection)... and I'd probably just disallow manual multi-select when you're not on the appropriate layer (which is how it currently works anyway.) Again, I'd have to defer to usability. I very rarely have ever needed to multi-select objects. Though I must concede that part of that might be because, again, since they're harder to get at and manipulate, I just don't use a lot of objects. Make them easier to use and I might start using them more. ;)

And *if* someone came around making a case for needing the ability to manually multi-select Tokens Layer Tokens, Hidden Layer Tokens, and Object Layer Tokens all at the same time, then there would have to be a way to select more than one layer at a time. But, that's another issue/corner-case (and wouldn't be a bad feature to have anyway.) Heck, maybe that's the feature I'm really looking for here... I'd hate to give up the click-through pop-ups to get it, but I would if it made accessing tokens simpler.
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Re: Selecting Object and Hidden Tokens from Token Layer.

Post by Full Bleed »

Phergus wrote:That's an interesting idea. I may have to steal that. Currently I rarely use the label field but this has potential.
FYI, here is a quick function to pull a list of all tokens on a map with a particular label. Should save you the trouble of building one yourself:

[getLabelTokens("Label Name")]

Code: Select all

[h: label = arg(0)]

[h: allTokensList = getTokenNames()]

[h: labelTokenList = ""]

[h, FOREACH (token, allTokensList), CODE:
	{
		[h: labelTokenList = if (getLabel(token) == label, listAppend(labelTokenList, token), labelTokenList)]
	}
]

[r: labelTokenList]
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Re: Selecting Object and Hidden Tokens from Token Layer.

Post by Phergus »

Full Bleed wrote:Is, as a GM, being able to select items on all layers without doing the layer-dance "unintuitive"?
Well, in general, I'd say that creating an intuitive UI is one of hardest challenges when designing VTTs as it has to be part game interface, part graphics editor, and part world editor and, for the GM, it has to be all three of those at the same time. MT is no worse and, perhaps, a little better than most. But, of course, we should try to be better.

I do agree with your overall assessment and think that some method of more quickly selecting tokens on the Hidden and Object layers would ease the GM load quite a bit. Might even encourage more GMs to make use of them.

Myself, I use objects all the time and most of them have Notes on them. They are, without a doubt, one of the best ways to reduce GM load. Everything that would normally be read aloud to the players goes on one or more objects in rooms and locations so that I don't have repeat myself 3 or 4 times on every little detail. Makes it easy for the players to take notes about what they saw. Allows for lots of flavor text as well that doesn't require me to speak to them.

I almost never use the Hidden layer mostly because I think it is pointless and for the very reasons you state. As GM, I can see it but I don't know if it is Hidden or Object. Is it Visible? Maybe. I added it to the room two weeks ago and have forgotten which layer I put it on. The Map Explorer helps me a lot but I expect a lot of people don't use it. So things that I want hidden, whether on the Object or Background layer, just get set to Not Visible and stay on their assigned layer. That way I don't need to guess which layer to switch to.
Full Bleed wrote:As for intuition, when you select Hidden and Object tokens the selection box is a different color. That's intuitive enough for me to know that I don't have a token object selected.
That's funny as I had completely forgotten about that until you brought it up. Had to go look and see. I see the selection box but didn't pay any attention to the color cue. If I get the box then I know I'm on the right layer. If I don't, then I need to change layers. This could be useful for the double-click to select other layers option. And Hidden should have a different color cue then Object or Background.
Full Bleed wrote:... and I'd probably just disallow manual multi-select when you're not on the appropriate layer (which is how it currently works anyway.)
That would be how I would go about it though, as you say, I expect someone will then complain about not being able to multi-select. Some thought has to be given to that.

At the end of the day I do think that being able to select tokens from any of the three layers (Token, Object, Hidden) should be made easier without having to futz with selecting the right layer. I don't think it is a major challenge code-wise. Mostly a matter of getting some time to look into the code for gotchas.

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Re: Selecting Object and Hidden Tokens from Token Layer.

Post by Phergus »

Full Bleed wrote:FYI, here is a quick function to pull a list of all tokens on a map with a particular label. Should save you the trouble of building one yourself:
Thanks! Got to file that away for future use.

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