4e - which framework and why?

[Kzach]

As someone new to Maptool I just dove right in and grabbed the first framework I thought was the most well supported. As it turns out, I may have been hasty in that judgement.

So I'm curious as to which frameworks people are using for 4e and why they prefer it. I'm especially curious about the differences between the frameworks and what their strengths and weaknesses are so that I can do a comparison.

I figure this comparison will be helpful for others as well.

And as a side question for the developers of those frameworks, why don't you work together to make one, uber framework?

Again, just curious.

[Werethunder]

Yes... I guess this is exactly my case!

[aku]

Well, DeviantNull's and Veggiesama's are generally the two most used/talked about discussed full featured frameworks around. if you're looking for something a little more combat automated, but fewer over all features, Rumble's might interest you.

And that may give you some insight as to why there isnt one "Framework to Rule Them All", the designers each had their own use for them, and so they designed them with that desire in mind. Rumble, for example, used his personally for face to face games, before developing it for the general community, so he doesnt need as much character sheet support functions (like inventory) for his.

[Rumble]

Not exactly true - it was created for online play. However, because my group doesn't use MapTool for anything except combat encounters, I boiled the necessary parts down to "what's the overall bonus/damage/defense, and how do I use it to chop up the bad guys?"

It's actually growing the other way now: in the as-yet-unreleased next version, there is weapon/implement support, a Proficiency + Ability + Half-Level + Whatever bonus breakdown (instead of saying "the attack bonus is +9", you say "the attack ability is Strength, the weapon is my Mace, and the miscellaneous bonus is +2" or something along those lines).

Eventually, I'll work Armor into the mix, and so forth.

However, aku's larger point is correct: we all started these things with different goals in mind. I wanted to target enemies and automate the killing thereof; veggie wanted a complete/flexible power creation system; and DeviantNull wanted an interactive character sheet. From those starting points, they grew in different directions.

[neofax]

This is my $0.02, so take with a grain of salt. Here are some things to think of:

• Supported
• Features
• Future rules
• Expandaibility
• Maintenance

Here is the ratings I would give to each:

Veggiesama

• Supported - 0
• Features - 5
• Future rules - 2
• Expandaibility - 1
• Maintenance - 4

Rumble

• Supported - 5
• Features - 3
• Future rules - 5
• Expandaibility - 5
• Maintenance - ? (have not used it as a DM)

DeviantNull

• Supported - 5
• Features - 5
• Future rules - 5
• Expandaibility - 5
• Maintenance - ? (have not used as a DM)

Now, I use Veggiesama's framework even though it has some flaws and serious problems with adding features (moderate entry point to learn macros and deciphering what the goal of the code was). For DMing it is very simple to create monsters. Also, there are others out there like TKs (supported by the Character Creator tool for PHB1 material), Pyromancers, Sylvias and Palmers. My best advice would be to download them and play with them and see what feels right for you.

[aku]

ah, sorry rumble, i coulda swore i had read that you had started yours for an offline group

[Rumble]

ah, sorry rumble, i coulda swore i had read that you had started yours for an offline group

No need for an apology; I was nitpicking.

[aku]

ah, sorry rumble, i coulda swore i had read that you had started yours for an offline group

No need for an apology; I was nitpicking.

meh, i hate disseminating inaccurate info, so the apology is gonna stand

[Hawke]

The "framework" that I'm using is pretty lite, but nowhere near good enough to release. Just slowly growing it as I learn scripting. My philosophy is that I don't want the framework to do what the character builder does - I'd like to just plug in numbers from the charsheet and go from there - so you create a power and just drop in the various numbers. No support for multiple weapons (characters just create two powers if they can use it with two weapons).

The thing I'm looking into doing next is setting up time-based conditions (save, my turn, your turn) that automatically end. Any of the above frameworks have that built in so I could snag the concept? The idea would be to click a macro, select a condition, select a length (save or end of (select from list)'s next turn). Save would be easy enough, just apply the condition and add an end-turn (custom) note reminding you to save. The end of turn list would be tougher... figure out whether that person has "gone yet" this round and then figure out the round number it's expected to end. Add that note to that token's end-turn note.

[DeviantNull]

The "framework" that I'm using is pretty lite, but nowhere near good enough to release. Just slowly growing it as I learn scripting. My philosophy is that I don't want the framework to do what the character builder does - I'd like to just plug in numbers from the charsheet and go from there - so you create a power and just drop in the various numbers. No support for multiple weapons (characters just create two powers if they can use it with two weapons).

Yeah, I started with that premise... It didn't work out so well. I kept finding that due to constantly shifting numbers, it was driving me nuts. Mine is effectively just an interface to get those numbers into the equations to start with. Granted, it has now grown to allow one to adjust things easily on the fly and handle usage tracking, but aside from figuring level bonus + ability score + mods it doesn't actually build a character.

Well, that and the no-macro button thing. I don't have anything against buttons, but they seemed a little redundant when I could just make the information do it itself.

[scscofield]

I do a 'face to face' game with my players using Palmer's framework. They each have a laptop and we all sit in the liveing room and play. Some of them have built macros for thier tokens, and I use macros on the mob tokens but general group opinion is that the dice rollers in Maptools hate them :-p Even the ones that have macros built in tend to ignore them if they have a bad streak of rolls with them. The dmg/heal set up that Palmer created for the tokens is perfect for my games though.

[neofax]

The thing I'm looking into doing next is setting up time-based conditions (save, my turn, your turn) that automatically end. Any of the above frameworks have that built in so I could snag the concept? The idea would be to click a macro, select a condition, select a length (save or end of (select from list)'s next turn). Save would be easy enough, just apply the condition and add an end-turn (custom) note reminding you to save. The end of turn list would be tougher... figure out whether that person has "gone yet" this round and then figure out the round number it's expected to end. Add that note to that token's end-turn note.

Too bad the InitTool is not built directly into MapTools yet. This tool does all of this, but it is a pain to run two programs and monitor both.

[Hawke]

Too bad the InitTool is not built directly into MapTools yet. This tool does all of this, but it is a pain to run two programs and monitor both.

I know this is in the someday category, but man I'd love that.

[Rumble]

Too bad the InitTool is not built directly into MapTools yet. This tool does all of this, but it is a pain to run two programs and monitor both.

I know this is in the someday category, but man I'd love that.

My framework does that - you can apply conditions and expiration times, and if you use the initiative panel, it will automatically expire conditions at specific times (IIRC, the time frames are: beginning of next turn, end of next turn, save ends, special, no save, end of encounter. Regeneration is automatically applied at the beginning of turns; conditions can be set to be applied by attacks, and so forth.

DevoDog took that part of the framework and used it to inspire his own version - I don't know how much attack/damage handling it does, but I know it's designed to handle timing of conditions and linking them to initiative.

[DevoDog]

DevoDog took that part of the framework and used it to inspire his own version - I don't know how much attack/damage handling it does, but I know it's designed to handle timing of conditions and linking them to initiative.

I "borrowed" quite freely from Rumble's Combat Manager Framework. My version is available via http://www.devodog.us/MapTools.aspx.

Mine is definitely intended for face-to-face games. Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on how you look at it), it's going to be a few weeks before I use my FW again since I'm now a player in the face-to-face game (I'm now alternating DM responsibilities with another player).

I think it would be impossible for there to be an "uber" framework. The designers of the frameworks have(had) different objectives and that would create different design philosophies.

One thing that could possibly work is a standard set of token properties that are shared across multiple frameworks.

I was glad to see the post that talked about the differences between the different frameworks. It might be helpful if framework developers included an Abstract of what their framework does (and does not do) and the approach they were taking in developing their FW.