4e - which framework and why?

[aku]

the problem with the unified properties is that, because each framework does different things, the common set of properties is going to be so small, that it's not even really worth it.

[Rumble]

I was glad to see the post that talked about the differences between the different frameworks. It might be helpful if framework developers included an Abstract of what their framework does (and does not do) and the approach they were taking in developing their FW.

I tried to capture some of this in the Readme for my framework, but it's more aimed at "how to use it" rather than "this is how I approached it." I could do a pseudo-architecture explanation, if anyone would find it useful.


Edit: come to think of it, I might find it useful. The framework has grown well beyond its original scope; might be nice to write down how it actually works.

[neofax]

the problem with the unified properties is that, because each framework does different things, the common set of properties is going to be so small, that it's not even really worth it.

This is not necessarily true. If you look at TK's framework thread, there is so many things that can be shared between the frameworks. The only things that cannot be shared is the properties that make the framework particularly unique. This could all be handled by a seperate Lib:Token. So, you would have a generic properties file with all of the common items, a generic Lib:Token that handles the basics (Attack, Damge, Healing, Powers, Rests...) and then one or more Lib:Tokens that handle the uniqueness of the framework (Character Sheet, Tracking...).

[Hawke]

Maybe someone should setup something like this on the wiki to allow a quick comparison of 4E frameworks.

[Rumble]

the problem with the unified properties is that, because each framework does different things, the common set of properties is going to be so small, that it's not even really worth it.

This is not necessarily true. If you look at TK's framework thread, there is so many things that can be shared between the frameworks. The only things that cannot be shared is the properties that make the framework particularly unique. This could all be handled by a seperate Lib:Token. So, you would have a generic properties file with all of the common items, a generic Lib:Token that handles the basics (Attack, Damge, Healing, Powers, Rests...) and then one or more Lib:Tokens that handle the uniqueness of the framework (Character Sheet, Tracking...).

In my framework, and I assume all the others - every property in it is designed toward doing what the framework does - all of the attacks, healing, damage, resting, etc. in my framework is built in a very specific way, formatted in a certain way, etc. I think aku's right - there's more difference than commonality, and adopting a uniform "API" is not a matter of updating a framework, but writing a new one.

There's nothing wrong with the idea, but it's a lot of work.

[neofax]

I did not mean that it would or should, only that it can.

[vinny9]

It would be great if someone could post links to these frameworks for those of us who don't know where to find them (aka: lazy people like me).

[aku]

They're all pretty much all in this forum's child called "Campaign Frameworks"

[kazinsky]

I have tried, in this order, Pyro's, Veggie's, DeviantNull's and Rumble's.

I play in and GM a face-to-face game with a projector and a couple of the players on laptops. For my purposes, Rumble's automation of targeting, damage and condition application as well as tracking is superb. Sure, it doesn't have some of the things that I liked from Veggie's and DN's, but they are things that I can live without.

My goal at the table is to use any tool that will decrease the bookkeeping, automate simple tasks and make the game visually more enjoyable. With those goals in mind, Rumble's framework, so far, has been exemplary.

I have to take some time to test out DeviantNull's newest versions, since some of what I was glancing at is really nice, but I fear that if I pick up something that doesn't automate damage and condition tracking will have a huge hill to climb with respects to gaining my vote.

As others have said, download them all, mock up some battles and play with them. Each group is going to have different wants and needs. (Two things really pushed me away from Veggie's framework, btw: lack of support -- I hope he's doing well -- and the lag that is induced from his complex macros.)

[KronikAlkoholik]

Sorry for reviving an old thread but I thought I better post here then start a new one.

I'm looking for a 4E framework and am also not sure wich one to pick. I plan to use it for a face to face game instead of using physical tiles, miniatures and maps. It would be great if it also keeps track of HP, init count and states of tokens. It could remind me when an saving throw is do and so on.

What I do not won't however is something that takes the dicerolling completely away from the players and a way to interpret the rules my way.

So my ideal framework would be the one who automates most things without stepping on my toes.

As I find that these great frameworks seem to lack explaining well what they do I would love if someone could point something out for me.

[Rumble]

I don't know if any of the "big three" meet your needs - all of them, to my knowledge, conduct all dice rolls via MapTool. I know, at least, that mine does (but then, they weren't designed for face-to-face play).

Also, mine, at least, is fairly rigid in its interpretation of the rules - attacks are resolved a particular way, damage is processed a particular way, you can't really interrupt it, etc. So it's not really "house-rule" friendly; it cleaves as close as I could to the rules-as-written, though I know it's not 100%.

I know that - palmer? plothos? - created a "lightweight" 4E framework that might help, and I know that DevoDog has a "combat manager" which was not really a full framework but a play aid, so those might help. And several users have modified frameworks to allow inputting of "traditional" dice roll totals, and then resolved the rest. You'll have to dig for those, though.

[neofax]

What I think you are looking for is InitTool instead of MapTool. Unless of course you need the map as well. InitTool can handle everything you asked above and does not roll the dice for you. It is more of a DM's tool to handle all of the minutiae than just a initiative tracker.