The MacroPolicebox: Second Regeneration (D&D 4E Framework)

Framework(s) for D&D 4e, including Veggiesama's.

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fhscholl
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Re: The MacroPolicebox: Rumble Edition (D&D 4E Framework)

Post by fhscholl »

Here is where LS and I disagree. I don't think the compendium source is the way to go either, but I think it should support importing exported monsters from the DDI Adventure tools. Then you get all current monsters in a place where you can level and modify them as well as build your own and the import tool can read them all.

Looking at how MPB functions, I see no reason what-so-ever that this needs to be done in maptool, btw. I think it would be far more efficient to stand up a web site that takes a DDI monster XML file and sends back a token. This approach removes bloat from the framework itself (so it can concentrate on game mechanics), any coding done for the converter could be done in something far more useful than the almost painful maptool macro language, and changes could be made to it without the need to release a new framework revision.

Edit: Sample attached.
Fire Beetle.xml
(21.6 KiB) Downloaded 121 times

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StarMan
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Re: The MacroPolicebox: Rumble Edition (D&D 4E Framework)

Post by StarMan »

Yeah, massaging things into a common format regardless of the source is a great way to go too. The common example that springs to mind are PDFs. Just install a PDF printer driver then any application can print to that driver and produce a standalone viewable document.

As things stand today, it would be cool if you could write a Windows or Java app that you can drag your "Fire Beetle.xml" into and it will spit out "Fire Beetle MPB.rptok". Of course, I have absolutely no idea how that could be done but I bet there are XML parsers out there that assist in the translation. I also know that there is embedded XML in each rptok file so maybe the trick is in just mapping the fields of one into the other.

Anyway, there are many ways to skin the cat but it may be more productive to just focus on one at a time. Again, I think JH is the best way to go for now as the work is already mostly done. You can then chase down the DDI HTML and XML ways later as time allows.
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Re: The MacroPolicebox: Rumble Edition (D&D 4E Framework)

Post by StarMan »

StarMan wrote:That's the beauty of it. You don't have to give up the setup portion of Rumble's and all your existing tokens made in that environment. In fact, Rumble usage is a requirement for setting up your tokens. Yeah, you can squeak by without it but even I found that kinda tough.
After my announcement concerning the release of MPB Beta 5, I got the following response:
secabeen wrote:Thanks for the update. I think the thing that's not currently clear with MPB is that you *have* to have tokens in Rumble format before using MPB. With Rumble now unsupported, it would be nice to have a video showing how to use MPB from scratch, presuming that your creating a new campaign, with new characters and monsters and using minimal to none of Rumble's stuff.
Thanks very much for your letter secabeen as your point is well taken. In fact most of the discussion on this thread has been on this very topic. I do begin this page with the statement " Before you can create MPB tokens, you must first create them in Rumble's Framework according to guidelines outlined below. " ... but that is fairly far down in the documentation. I have made amends by qualifying the third bullet on the first page of the much earlier Transition Guide which will hopefully eliminate any confusion.

I completely agree that the MPB should be able to create its own tokens without having to rely on Rumble. Technically, it is possible to manually enter all the values for your token's properties and then use this macro to create your powers completely independent of Rumble. That's a little tough which is why I didn't do a video for that. If you want to try this anyway then go ahead and let me know if you have any questions.

This reliance on a third-party is why I am excited Long Shot and FHScholl have stepped up to the plate. They have taken it upon themselves to create importing code that directly generates MPB powers from Compendium text without the intermediate step. Read back further in this thread for more details. Hopefully these gents will give us further updates as their work progresses. In all cases, I encourage going into the generated powers and editing them as you see fit. Even if your group does not have a programmer, try going through the Programmer's Reference anyway and I am sure the MPB community (now two dozen users and growing!) will be happy to assist.

For now, my group and I are happy to continue using Rumble for this purpose. Originally, it was apparent that an easy and efficient means for data entry by the user was required. I needed to create my own or go with a ready-made solution. By adopting the latter, I was killing two birds with one stone. Rumble users could have their migration path while I was spared the effort of writing my own interface. The cruel irony is that writing the migration code proved to be so difficult that it may very well have been easier to write my own interface! On the positive side, it is now working very very well.

Of course, I didn't know all that when starting out. We still have the benefit of Rumble migration so it's all good. After all, Rumble is still the defacto standard when it comes to playing D&D 4e under MapTool. In my opinion, writing a D&D 4e framework without a Rumble migration path is kind of like creating a word processor without a Microsoft Word import filter. Everyone has numerous documents in Word format so it behooves you to create a means whereby they may preserve all that work.

To summarize, let's use Rumble for now until somebody creates a better means for importing. Thanks for your question and keep them coming!
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Re: The MacroPolicebox: Rumble Edition (D&D 4E Framework)

Post by Deadolus »

Your Flank Detection (I assume) is to determine if to apply the combat advantage bonus or not? Does your framework take in to account features like all-round vision, and other features or conditions where tokens (PC or Monster) do not grant CA from being flanked?
Does it take in to account other conditions that may cause tokens to be granting combat advantage? If so, what are they?

The Action Points Awards; does the DM have the ability to choose to apply this way or not? Sometime encounters are worth more than one, or less than one.

In the Turn Enforcement; what is the process when a token grants actions to other tokens, as part of its turn? Can that token act? If not, can this be turned off?

In your Save Ends Both Support... well, maybe more of a question on your condition management; do you support multiple conditions from different sources? For example, Ongoing 10 Acid (save ends) from one monster, and Ongoing 20 Acid until the end of your next turn form another? Are they tracked independently, and is the right damage applied?

On that same note; does it track the type of bonuses that are applied to tokens ensure there are no like-bonuses over stacking? For example, when a spell gives a power bonus to a token’s attack roll, will the framework know if that token already has a power bonus to attack rolls; and thus not over stack the attack bonus?

Is there support for spell preparation (spellbooks)?

Regarding your Forced Movement Support; does the framework know if there are restrictions to tokens being forced to move? For example; Swarms.

Is there support for tokens other than PC’s and NPC’s? For example; traps and hazards that may or may not be attackable?

The language support sounds neat. In a powers' output, can you specify what PC’s see and what the DM sees? It would be nice to have little notes for the DM when a power is run. Sometimes posting everything is not appropriate.


I would be interested to know.

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StarMan
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Re: The MacroPolicebox: Rumble Edition (D&D 4E Framework)

Post by StarMan »

Excellent questions, Deadolus. Let's go through them one by one:
Your Flank Detection (I assume) is to determine if to apply the combat advantage bonus or not? Does your framework take in to account features, like all-round vision, and other features or conditions where tokens (PC or Monster) are not flanked? Does it take in to account other conditions that may cause tokens to be granting combat advantage? If so, what are they?
Yes but unfortunately there is no way for the framework to tell if the victim is susceptible to flanking or not so this situation must be handled manually. If the object token has the "Eyes In The Back Of Your Head" feat for example, you can work around the problem by setting its "Altitude" to 1 or -1. This defeats the framework's flank detection mechanism while still allowing the flanking tokens to reach the object token. Combat advantage is also awarded to the attacker if either of the following applies:
  • He is adjacent to the prone target and making a melee attack
  • He is invisible
Although all three of these situations do not display the CombatAdvantage_All state, all regular consequences of the condition (such as the Rogue's Sneak Attack) are taken into account, if applicable. If enough users request it, I can add an "Unflankable" state to the campaign. In my opinion, this situation doesn't occur often enough to warrant such a measure as the Altitude workaround is quite reasonable. Of course, you can also simply "zero out" the GrantingCA field in the "to hit" dialog when attacking.
The Action Points Awards; does the DM have the ability to choose to apply this way or not? Sometime encounters are worth more than one, or less than one.
The number of completed encounters is represented by the ActionPoints property of the MPB token itself. For example, let's say the party has completed three encounters in the current game day. Running the "Begin Encounter" macro at this point will cause the ActionPoints property to change from 3 to 4. If your players have just completed a double encounter, you can reflect that fact by manually increasing this value by one. For encounters that don't count toward a milestone, decrease this value by one.
In the Turn Enforcement; what is the process when a token grants actions to other tokens, as part of its turn? Can that token act? If not, can this be turned off?
Yes This page wasn't as clear as it could have been so I added the line at the beginning. Good catch.
In your Save Ends Both Support... well, maybe more of a question on your condition management; do you support multiple conditions from different sources? For example, Ongoing 10 Acid (save ends) from one monster, and Ongoing 20 Acid until the end of your next turn form another? Are they tracked independently, and is the right damage applied?
Yes, yes and ... maybe. Let's look at an example. Here is the actual code generated by the RACK for the Blackspawn Gloomweb's "Acidic Web" power:

Code: Select all

[IF(AllHits!=""), CODE: {
    and is restrained (save ends both)
    [MACRO("Register Effect@Lib:MacroPolicebox"): "Name=Acidic Web-Restrained; State=Restrained; Token="+Targets]
    [MACRO("Register Effect@Lib:MacroPolicebox"): "Name=Acidic Web-OngoingAcid; Link=Acidic Web-Restrained; State=OngoingAcid; Property=CurrHP; Mod=15; Token="+Targets]
};{}] 
Notice the "Link=Acidic Web-Restrained;" parameter in the second Register Effect line. This tells the MPB that when "Acidic Web-OngoingAcid" ends, "Acidic Web-Restrained;" must end as well. If the victim is subjected to a second OngoingAcid power (such as the wizard's "Acid Mire", for example), the two effects will stack because they have different names. However, if a second Blackspawn Gloomweb also places its Acidic Web on the victim then that token will not take OngoingAcid 30 because the effect name is the same (i.e. the second overwrites the first).

This is my understanding of how ongoing damage is applied. If I am incorrect then please let me know and I will register this as a defect. In the meantime, it is very simple to work around the problem. Just change the names in the Register Effect lines of your monsters' powers as appropriate. See this section for more information.
On that same note; does it track the type of bonuses that are applied to tokens ensure there are no like-bonuses over stacking? For example, when a spell gives a power bonus to a token’s attack roll, will the framework know if that token already has a power bonus to attack rolls; and thus not over stack the attack bonus?
Yes and no. OK, let's say a tiefling uses "Infernal Wrath" (+1 power bonus) and a fear power which makes use of his "Hellfire Blood" (+1 feat bonus) ability. Again, because these Register Effect lines will have different names, they will stack. However, what if a cleric casts "Lance of Faith" on the tiefling? The power bonuses will stack when they should not. :( As with the Blackspawn Gloomweb, you need to adjust the names of the effects so they are the same. The easiest way to do this is to simply delete that parameter from the Register Effect lines so they both default to the state name (which is "AttackBonus" in both cases). Again, it would probably be easier to just handle the situation manually.
Is there support for spell preparation (spellbooks)?
No, this must be tracked manually. As my home game now has a wizard, I will make this a priority for Beta 6. In the meantime, you can just rearrange the powers on your personal library token. Daily spells the wizard has chosen to use that game day can go in the "Daily" group while unusable ones can be relegated to a group called "Spellbook" (or whatever).
Is there support for tokens other than PC’s and NPC’s? For example; traps and hazards that may or may not be attackable?
Yes
The language support sounds neat. In a powers' output, can you specify what PC’s see and what the DM sees? It would be nice to have little notes for the DM when a power is run. Sometimes posting everything is not appropriate.
I didn't think of that but good suggestion! When typing in what the DM sees, you could probably phrase it like so: "[g: The troll springs from hiding at this point!]". Square brackets can be problematic for the macro language at times but I know a few sneaky ways to get around this problem. This is the technique the MPB presently uses for notifying you about power recharges (see earlier post in this thread).
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Re: The MacroPolicebox: Rumble Edition (D&D 4E Framework)

Post by Vhex »

Hi StarMan,

I'd like to take a look at your framework, but do you have to register in order to get it? Or is there a place I can download it without signing up on your website?

Also, just a couple of notes:
1.) The h in my name is lowercase. It's pronounced "vex" as in "vexation." On your website, you have it as VHex which leads me to believe that you believe it's "Vee Hex." Just a point of accuracy.
2.) Your website seems to be an attempt at creating controversy where I don't see any controversy. I've been out of the forums for a while, but there's a lot of animosity when you mention Rumble's framework. I'm not sure if this is left over from your old group shunning your framework for his, but when reading your website it's very off-putting. It makes you sound elitist and I know a few people who would be so put off by that, they wouldn't even bother. If the remainder is the audience you're targeting then that's fine, but if you want to reach a broad audience my suggestion would be to tone down that animosity. The framework I currently run is a mixture of custom design and items pulled from several 4E frameworks as well as several 3.5 frameworks. I got there because the authors here have been very open with a "share and share alike" kind of philosophy rather than a competitive "mine has to be better" philosophy. Much of the rhetoric on your website is dedicated to proving that yours is better than Rumble's framework, but when I'm looking at a framework I'm looking at which framework has the features and usability that I need -- not necessarily which one's philosophies are the "best." Just as a "reach all audiences" suggestion, I think toning down your animosity would go a lot toward reader fulfillment and cause your framework to reach a larger audience. On that same note, I spent some time trying to find where people asked the questions you put up and I can't find them in the forums here, so I'm not sure what experience you've had with that...but they're not very independent.
3.) You make some assumptions about Colmarr and I that make you sound pretentious. It doesn't bother me, but it's another area where your website could be off-putting for a third party reader. On the one hand, you make the assumption that we went to enormous effort and "tried our best" when the work I did amounts to less than a few hours. You also make the assumption that we gave up, rather than getting the framework to meet the needs of our groups and not needing to continue. Later, you go to an effort to point out the difference between not having the capability to do something, and just not doing something. As it is said, it appears it only applies to you and not anyone else. That's what I mean when I say it sounds pretentious.

As I said, I'm very pragmatic in that respect and you've not offended me, but anyone outside reading it might assume a.) there's a feud going on that doesn't appear to exist and b.) do you really want to have to submit feature requests to someone with that attitude?

If you've really had a situation where people have derided your framework in favor of Rumble's the way you say, my suggestion would be to take the high road and focus on the benefits of your framework rather than the competitive nature between the two. It will make you sound more professional, not put people off, and likely get you more users than the current site. As is, it sounds like you're fighting a battle against Rumble's framework that I'm not even sure needs to be fought.

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StarMan
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Re: The MacroPolicebox: Rumble Edition (D&D 4E Framework)

Post by StarMan »

Excellent post, Vhex. Thank you for taking the time to look at my site and my apologies if you or anyone else found it elitist (disclaimers on that Q&A page notwithstanding). I appreciate the very enlightening clarification/feedback as that's what I'm looking for. You're partially right in that I projected the "shunning" onto the Rumble loyalists at large. I was just trying to be proactive to those who were wondering why they would want to switch. I'm very passionate about my work and that passion shows through in the wrong way sometimes.

Having said that, keep in mind that I did say several times (there and on the "History" page) that if you want to stick with your current framework then that's fine by me. Also keep in mind the MPB has many features which Rumble users have asked for. Combined with the fact I now have over two dozen users, maybe his fw is not meeting as many needs as you might think ... but I respect if it does with you and Colmarr. Conversely, I'm asking you to respect that other fws don't meet my group's standards. In other words, I'm not trying to "reach all audiences", just the users who have taken Rumble as far as they can and want more.

I'll correct the factual errors on the Q&A page you refer to and see what I can do about tuning down the pretentiousness.

Yes, you have to register to download it. BTW, if you go over to the "Macros" forum you will see a few posts from me saying "Hey, if you're trying to program that algorithm then look at this part of my work ..." (aka your "share and share alike" reference).
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Re: The MacroPolicebox: Rumble Edition (D&D 4E Framework)

Post by StarMan »

Just an FYI to those trying to reach my site this weekend:
MPB webspace provider wrote:Server #32 is under the DDOS attack (IP Nullrouted)
We have just received a HUGE (over 3GB/s incoming traffic) DDoS attack targeting the Server #32. Our CISCO guard firewall was unable to handle such attack, so one of the server IP address - 31.170.160.229 was disabled (all the rest websites on this server are working fine).

If your website is using this IP (due to unique IP rotation system only 3% websites are using this IP) it will be unavailable for the next 6 hours. As soon attack will subside, this IP address will be enabled and your website will start working again. We thank you for your patience and understanding.
Temporary bummer but hey whaddaya want for free? :wink: Please try again until the attack has concluded. Thanks!
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Kyuss's comments from Rumble's thread

Post by StarMan »

kyuss11 wrote:Well Starman I have not completely combined your code with Rumble's.I started to apply the aura's but in order to get every(Automated)aspect feature to work with Rumble's it would require ripping apart to blankets and then trying to resew them back together.I must say they are both great blankets,however the work didn't warrant the result. I found that player's didn't want a separate token to deal with for applying auras,power effects.It's easier to just create a aura and have the player's apply there power,effect and have Rumble's keep track of the initiative since it already does.The one great feature that Starman's framework would incorporate would be a automation on knowing the location of a target token in the aura or power as the round starts.Perhaps when I'm not so busy creating the ultimate 4e framework,I will get back to integrating that code to see if I can get you onTokenmove feature to apply.
On the point of "sewing the two blankets together", I couldn't possibly agree more. That is why I look forward to throwing away the "Rumble blanket" so as to not be beholden to the 5% of usefulness it provides powering my RACK feature. Like "secabeen" above, a few MPB users have not been amused by the fact Rumble token creation is mandatory for my framework as they feel it should be able to create its own. This is a fair assessment which is why eliminating this requirement will be my top priority for MPB 2.0.

Conversely, I believe integration of my aura code is an attainable goal assuming Rumble adheres to the same basic framework structure I do. Just add the two MPB Aura properties to your campaign and call the "Aura Attack" macro when required. Of course, you would need to modify "Aura Attack" to call the equivalent Rumble functions to modify stats. If that's still too hard then you should try something easier like my 3-D support. All you need to do there is add the "Altitude" property and call the "Altitude" macro.

BTW, the framework doesn't know the locations of tokens in auras. At the beginning of a token's turn, it goes through a list of known aura-emitting tokens and checks the distance between these and the current token. If said token is found to be in proximity of an aura, "Aura Attack" is called from that monster. I also mulled the use of onTokenMove but eventually decided it would be too resource-intensive to implement.

I also don't understand what you mean by "separate token to deal with". All you need to do is paste the MPB token into the Rumble campaign and create MPB macros directly on your Rumble tokens. No additional tokens should be necessary.
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Re: The MacroPolicebox: Rumble Edition (D&D 4E Framework)

Post by StarMan »

Hey 4e'ers, just a quick hello to announce that I have finally posted v1.0 on my site. To my knowledge, all showstoppers have been eliminated and I have even implemented some of Deadolus's concerns above. Spellbook support (via the new "Expend Power" macro) has been added and there is no need to manipulate the MPB's ActionPoints property as the new "End Encounter" macro will account for milestones automatically. Although I have been reasonably happy with the stability of the last couple of betas, the time has come to put a halt on my perfectionist tendencies. If you have a policy of not using beta software then now would be the time to jump on board (assuming you have mastered Rumble's framework first, of course). Hope you enjoy it ...
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Re: The MacroPolicebox: Rumble Edition (D&D 4E Framework)

Post by Asturia »

I can't get to you website at the moment.
Is there another link where I can download your framework?

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StarMan
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Re: The MacroPolicebox: Rumble Edition (D&D 4E Framework)

Post by StarMan »

Hmmm, I just tested it and it seems fine. At the time I tested there were 2 visitors online not including myself. What's the problem exactly? I tend to discourage acquisition of the framework by any means other than the site. If all else fails then use the URL I PMed you but keep in mind that won't always be available.
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Asturia
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Re: The MacroPolicebox: Rumble Edition (D&D 4E Framework)

Post by Asturia »

At the time I posted the message, the site was just unreachable.
Could have been on my end, but every other site worked.
It is reachable at this moment now, so don't bother anymore.

And thanks for sending me the link.

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Re: The MacroPolicebox: Rumble Edition (D&D 4E Framework)

Post by Vhex »

Your import notes aren't entirely correct for the new item that you mentioned regarding James Manhattan's importer. I thought I would post here and help out so that you can update your import if you'd like.
Important: This macro does not update the following properties because they are not available from dnd4e CB files: Class, Race, SurgeValue, SurgeSpecBonus, SurgeRemaining, InherentToHit, InherentDmg, InherentCrit, Powers (well at least not in the Rumble sense anyway), StrikerDamageDice, Implements, Weapons, ReachBonus
Class:
Use your parser to search for <RulesElement name="%" type="Class" where % is a wildcard. This will gain you the class information. If you want to get more detailed, you can parse out the remainder of the information from there. Remember that in the dnd4e xml standard this will actually appear twice, but the structures are different enough that you can find the one you're looking for in a quick look.

Race:
Similarly, you can do the same for Race, replacing "Class" above with "Race" Note that in both of these cases, you can actually pull only the % information if you're only looking for the Class or Race and it will always be the same regardless of which node that you pull it from. The only part where the subset matters is if you're trying to get specific information about the class or race.

Implements/Weapons are also in there, but I'm not clear on how your (or Rumble's) framework uses them so I can't really speak to that. I don't use that portion of either framework. If you're interested in finding out what weapons/implements you can equip, you're searching for "[Class] Implements" type="Grants" or "[Class] Weapons type="Grants"

Most of the other items are already calculable, so there's no need to parse those out, although going down that road will open you up to having to parse feats so I suspect you're more apt to just key it in manually (and rightfully so).

That leaves ReachBonus which used to be a property of the weapons themselves in the dnd4e file. Again, I'm not sure how you're using it so I can't be of much help there.

Hope that helps.

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Re: The MacroPolicebox: Rumble Edition (D&D 4E Framework)

Post by StarMan »

Yes, that does help so thanks for the tips! I grabbed the most I could in a cursory pass of the XML without modifying JM's original code. I did look at his xsl file in case I could divine a way to make things like Class and Race easier to extract but didn't see anything immediately obvious. Neither of these fields are critical to the MPB's operation so I likely won't worry about it. People can enter these and other ones manually if they want their power outputs to look prettier but they provide no benefit wrt to framework mechanics.

As for weapons and implements, this is something I would prefer to automate so I'll take a closer look. There is a stanza for Melee Basic Attack which gives the weapon breakdown in regular text. That shouldn't be too difficult to parse but it would have been nice if the dnd4e file was structured more granularly.

The main problem is the "appear twice" problem you cited. Actually, the way JM presents the JSON causes "type" and other nested fields to have something like 50 values. I might try massaging the data at the xsl and/or JSON levels so individual RulesElements are better delineated. Doing this is more trouble than it's worth for the fields in your quote above considering I have bigger fish to fry.

As discussed ad infinitum on my web site, I believe storing reference information like feats serves no purpose as that is what CB is for. Again, populating this data into the token is left as an exercise to the Rumble users if they wish.
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