[Survey] If we found signs of alien life...

[aliasmask]

Obviously, I left room for some explanation, so please do explain. I just recently watch Battleship and there have been numerous other movies where this question has arisen. So, what do you think?

My opinion, after some debate with myself is that we should. Ignoring all the Sci-Fi fantasies of near FTL travel, it's unlikely another world would form a full on assault of our planet just because they knew we were here. One of the Sci-Fi excuses is that we have water. Seeing that water is one of the most common elements in the Universe, that may not be a good reason. Perhaps to take over our world due to overpopulation or our other natural resources? Well, we've done a pretty good job depleting resources and poisoning our world to ourselves so it would be a major clean up job for them. Plus they'd have to deal with us which in the end may not be economical or done in a timely manner if they were desperate for resources. And the final reason is we have been broadcasting our location for almost the last 70 years already. If a civilization is advanced enough to visit/attack us, then they would have surely noticed us by now. Why not start a dialog?

[Xaelvaen]

Well, while water is common, planetary development theory dictates oxygen (and obviously thus water) must be one of the last steps of creation. I suppose that makes it quite powerful in some definition beyond our grasp, and if you're speaking of an alien life with the capability of sentient thought, I'd like to assume they're far more evolved than us. It lets me sleep better at night to think we are -not- the smartest species out there.

I voted yes, with exceptions. As long as first contact is made by the brightest we have available, on a purely scientific mission of discovery, I think even a monumental super intelligence would see that as a sign of development and growth. Of course, as an X-file junky from Old, I sincerely hope our celestial cousins are far, far distant cousins, and lack the same nature of betrayal, deceit, and self-gratification. Ya know what? Lets just make them not cousins at all. Perhaps friends from down the street.

[wolph42]

well, let me cast the first no then.

Several reasons:
1. its not 'water', but 'commodity' that is of interest. And yes we've depleted several commodities over the years but a lot of them can be found in the garbage piles (or 3rd world countries) where we dump the stuff. One of the biggest rising businesses for the near future will be recycling because of commodity issues. The only thing we (literally) burn is: fuel and I don't think that an alien race capable of FTL travel will be interested in that.
2. *we* (in this case I mean the human race) are also a commodity, as actually stated in the movie your referencing, what did *we* (in this case I mean western civ.) do when we found Africa or America or Australia etc.
3. Evolution does NOT happen by being nice to eachother, evolution works at its best when the weak are routed and the strong surive, for the more sentient on this planet this usually happens during war. Other forms of evolvement is through innovation or in simpler terms invention and all inventions originate from frustration. Frustrate an entire society and some great (though sometimes also awful) inventions are made. Also the invention are usually need driven. As per my above example, make sure that there is a commodity issue and great inventions will be (have been by now) made in that area.

So:
- IF a race has invented FTL flight there was a reason for it to do so. I leave it to your imagination what that was
- If a race manages to get evolved so far that its capable of that... again I'll leave it to your imagination to how

Finally a more general remark. Yes we have been broadcasting for the last 113 years to be exact (first voice transmission was in 1900 by Reginald Fessenden), but the strength of that signals and the signals thereafter are so incredibly weak that the signal-to noise ration is 0 by the time they reach alpha centauri (closest system: 4 ly). Really strong signals that last longer are maybe of the last 20 years or so making the amount of solar systems that could potentially pick something up around 80 systems or so?
In all for now its very unlikely that any sentient being not from this planet has detected anything from us.

[Jagged]

As you suggest, I always thought "Water as a reason for invasion" was a ridiculous idea. Any civilisation capable to crossing the Interstellar void is going to have realised that those Gas Giants they keep flying past contain far more water than little old Earth. Its probably more economical in power terms to skim the atmosphere of a Gas Giant for water than it is to skim the Earth's oceans, too. The only thing the Earth might have that is "possible" rare, is Life. So in the realms of extremely unbelievable things ever happening, aliens invading to harvest Life is entirely more likely.

But back to the quest: If we found Intelligent Life should WE contact them? I'd be inclined to vote "No" because of the probably detrimental effects such contact would have on the contacted society. Unless of course it was it turns out we live in a Gene Roddenberry or a David Brin type universe and there is Intelligent life out there, waiting for us to "grow-up", but otherwise, "No".

[Xaelvaen]

Very interesting points, Wolph - I have to stick by the idea, however, that mankind is evolving differently, and at a much faster pace than traditional evolution, through discovery. The atom bomb may be a massive weapon that was quite honestly an evolution of warfare and energy, but it wasn't invented out of the need to destroy. It was just abused into that position. I think discovery can be an equal catalyst to evolution, in a sentient lifeform.

We don't -need- a new planet yet, but the search is still on for FTL travel, Cold-Fusion energy-driven engines for deep space exploration, cryogenesis, and much more. Depending on your level of conspiracy involvement, of course, you could think this research only gets funding for rich old bastards who want a cheaper way to harness resources from other planets. Nasa quickly realized, however, there's currently no money in space travel (quickly being a relative term equating to circa 50 years).

Nonetheless, all valid points. I speak purely out of hope for something higher than ourselves, honestly lol.

[wolph42]

The atom bomb may be a massive weapon that was quite honestly an evolution of warfare and energy, but it wasn't invented out of the need to destroy. It was just abused into that position.

erm... exactly for what purpose was it designed then?

[Bone White]

Depends on the alien's level of development really. The question is too broad to be able to answer in any depth. What we could learn from a "lesser" or "primitive" alien life would put us in good stead for inter-alien communication in the future.

You're all assuming the sign of alien life we could find would always be more advanced, or are capable of space travel.

[jfrazierjr]

The atom bomb may be a massive weapon that was quite honestly an evolution of warfare and energy, but it wasn't invented out of the need to destroy. It was just abused into that position.

erm... exactly for what purpose was it designed then?

heh... touche... Of course the "Atom bomb" was created exactly for warfare with the intention to destroy. Now, if the question was "nuclear fission was developed so as to be developed into a weapon", well... that's the question that may or may not be true. From a scientific perspective, yea the guys were just trying to learn stuff, but ultimately the discovery was first put to practical use(though you could argue that mass death and destruction is not a practical use) via weaponry.

[aliasmask]

Depends on the alien's level of development really. The question is too broad to be able to answer in any depth. What we could learn from a "lesser" or "primitive" alien life would put us in good stead for inter-alien communication in the future.

You're all assuming the sign of alien life we could find would always be more advanced, or are capable of space travel.

Actually, I'm not making that assumption, but did present that as the biggest fear. IMO, space travel is hard and if our civilization lasts long enough, then in about 5000 years we may have the technology to actually leave our solar system using moore's law and a few other theories about our population and advancement. I think Michio Kaku was the source on that tidbit. He also said, it's likely that we will never be able to leave our solar system thus dooming the human race.

I think we'll have a tough time of it in about 300 years and we'll need a major change in world view. A consumer economy is not sustainable. As with any closed system, as resources are consumed, pollution goes up and the environment starts to kill off the consumers. We'll be in store for some mass famine, water shortage, wars over resources and very likely another ice age. Only our technology and those who control it will have a chance to continue on as Billions die. Nature has a reset button and we've had our thumb on it for awhile. But out of the ashes, we'll be leaner and stronger and perhaps a little more humble. Now this may not happen, but I think a lot will have to change for it not to happen.

[JamzTheMan]

Lets flip it, if w find signs of intelligence and it is several hundred years younger than us and we have a breakthough in FTL (nasa is wprking on it) should WE visit them?

I say no good could come from it.

[aliasmask]

Even if we just had 1/2 light speed we could get to many stars in a generation. Knowing our current state of civilization, I think our technology is greater than our ethics. I don't think our society as it is can handle aliens, on the whole. I look to the SciFi writers as our prophets and how things would likely turn out. They don't paint a happy picture. Until we achieve world peace on our planet, we don't have the right to involve others in our BS.

But if it were just communication that took several years to complete, I think an exchange of our better selves would be beneficial. But we'd have to be honest about our true selves to them so they don't get the wrong impression (scorpion and the frog story, we're the scorpion). I think one benefit in knowing, really knowing that others are out there is people would start to think globally rather than locally.

[metatheurgist]

I think Michio Kaku was the source on that tidbit. He also said, it's likely that we will never be able to leave our solar system thus dooming the human race.

That's as good an explanation for the Fermi paradox as any other.

Lets flip it, if w find signs of intelligence and it is several hundred years younger than us and we have a breakthough in FTL (nasa is wprking on it) should WE visit them?

Could or Should won't be a factor. We have a culture of refugee-ism on this world. If our world is crap and someone believes they can get ahead by infesting another world they will. Yes, I have a low opinion of Humanity.

On Topic, from what we know about life there are usually predators and prey. I don't think we have the capacity to be predators at the moment. Smart prey try to remain unnoticed. I agree that the motivations of most movie aliens for invading the world have been debunked by science, but there's still the possibility that an alien race will eliminate competition just for the sake of it. Intelligent life doesn't have to be empathetic or sympathetic, it could just be coldly logical. Or they could just be interested in harvesting and patenting our biological processes.

[Bone White]

I think most alien races would view our multiple languages, national borders and racism (perhaps sexism also) as ludicrously primitive traditions which should be thrown aside if any chance of diplomacy is to be taken seriously, regardless of technology level.

[Sol Invictus]

I think most alien races would view our multiple languages, national borders and racism (perhaps sexism also) as ludicrously primitive traditions which should be thrown aside if any chance of diplomacy is to be taken seriously, regardless of technology level.

I don't think so. I think any other truly conscious life, even more advanced then us, will be very much like us. It is not a special human trait to fight with your neighbour instead of loving them. Philosophically and theologically put: Every thing and every body is confined just by the virtue of being, e.g. confined to exist in one place, one time, but also to have no more than one me at a time, and a lot of things that are connected to that. This confinement causes conflict with other things and other beings that occupy the same space or time. Christian theology calls that "original sin" - that we cannot escape the problem of being limited just by existing (in this world). This means any existing conscious, sentient, intelligent alien life will be subject to the basic rule of existence as well. They will be as good and as bad as we are. Meaning they will know problems like racism and cultural diversity. (not sure though why multiple languages or the concept of tradition is something bad, but that's not the point)
Well, you might argue, that is not true for Q (Star Trek) or Mr. Manhattan from the Watchmen movie. I admit that Mr. Manhattan seems to exist in his entire existence at once, so the "one time" rule does not apply. But - even he can't be, where he's not. Because when he occupies a time and a space, even if multiple times and spaces at once, he is limited to that (bigger) chunk of time and space, that is a unity by virtue of him being a unity. Well, I guess you could disagree on that - but the result stands - even Mr. Manhattan is limited, because everything around him is. And thus he is subjected to diversity at least indirectly.

Intelligent life doesn't have to be empathetic or sympathetic, it could just be coldly logical.

Now, if the aliens would be only intelligent and not have things like emotions or a sense of subjectivity or of good and evil, maybe not even be conscious as individuals or as a community - then they might indeed not understand that being causes conflict that has to be resolved within the limits of the conditions of existence in the world. Then maybe it would demand that we abolish racism and cultural diversity first. But of such a being I would doubt that this entity is truly sentient, that it actually is a person. And that we should treat it as a proper partner for diplomacy. It seems to me, that would not even be an animal, but merely a possibly complex computer.
(Data from Star Trek however has some capability of understanding things like that. Plus he is self-aware and seems to have a conscience.)
Aaaanyway, I voted "Yes". Because if you take into account the above, sentient aliens (the kind one can communicate with at all) will not be fundamentally different from us. They will have different cultures, appearances, history, technology, etc., but that's nothing we haven't experienced before on earth. Well, there is a chance that they want to enslave or rule us. But there's a good chance that they would have tried already if they wanted to and had the means to. Plus, that reason will always be there: The unknown aliens might always be more advanced, or more in numbers, and hostile. That fear will not leave us - until they maybe one day contact us. And it is always wiser to take the initiative in matters like these, and thus avoid to be discovered by the others. Makes an impression. Turn yourself from a discovered resource into an agent of your own will.
Finally - again from a theological point of view - humanity's mandate is living. And sentient life means making experiences. And social experiences are a good part of that. Now imagine that whole new world of social and non-social experiences we can open up by contacting aliens! Hm... Vulcan cheese... hm... I want to have that... Or police Jedis! Or lava lamps and handheld computers you can speak with! Oh, wait, we have those.

[Azhrei]

Heh, very interesting discussion.

I'm a Robert Heinlein fan, so I ascribe to some of the observations he made. Some of these points are based on, or are developed from, his ideas.

1. If we have faster-than-light travel (or even something close to it) relativity states that any contact with a race outside our solar system will take place far into (our) future. Even if we could reach the closest star in a generation (ship time) it would appear to be multiple generations here on Earth. How would the crew of the ship contact Earth to report the meeting? How could they be representatives of Earth when the Earth they knew no longer exists? They could get updates via radio/laser for awhile, but they would always remain behind the curve simply due to the speed of light. (*)

2. Assuming we had interstellar travel, our best chance for survival is to wait well beyond the orbit of the planet we are targeting and listen for radio broadcasts, light emissions, and any other form of energy we can monitor. We would be wise to wait and watch, and not merely plop ourselves down on their doorstep one day and yell "Hi there!" Some people believe this is why Earth keeps being visited by UFOs -- they are the gradual introduction of the concept of life beyond this planet, so that when they believe we are ready for "first contact" we won't be completely panic-stricken (emphasis on "completely" ).

3. Evolution has nothing to do with technology. Man, as a species, has evolved very little in the last 10,000 years. Our technology has allowed us to see things well beyond our maturity (we can see into the atom as well as across the galaxy). If we visit another planet and find a race in the same evolutionary place we were 5,000 years ago, what then? It would take that long for another ship from Earth to reach the planet and by then this new race would have evolved as well! And while technology on Earth might advance, the people on the ship couldn't take advantage of it and would be years behind the curve when they arrived. (**)

(*Note) We might be able to communicate across the galaxy/universe with no lag using quantum spin devices. Experiments show that changing the spin of a quark in one location on the Earth causes the spin of its tangled quark to change at the exact same instant on the other side of the planet (8000+ miles away). If a device could be created to house such quarks then something similar to Star Trek's "subspace communication" might be possible, but it would be FTL as it would occur instantaneously.

(**Note) It's likely that technology on Earth might develop that would allow FTL travel and thus ships leaving Earth later could meet the alien races sooner. What obligations do we have to find the slower ship and "rescue" those aboard? Perhaps we should give this a high priority as it prevents our ship from being discussed by a more advanced race on a time frame that we can't control?

As I said at the beginning... "Interesting discussion." I'm a fan of (some) science fiction and this is just the type of thing...