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Demigod
 
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2007 11:53 am
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 Post subject: Re: Mote Kickstarter: We are going LIVE!
PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:57 pm 
Bone White wrote:
One more question, in using MapTool, it has been a constant frustration for players who get stuck in a loop whilst loading, but no one has any indication of this. Will the host/GMs be able to view how much of the map/campaign each connected client has downloaded? This would allow for easier diagnosis of connection problems.


Judging from what I've seen in some of the videos, it does look like there are bars to show asset download % in Mote. That being said, the name of the actual asset being downloaded should be hidden to players. It would be quite a spoiler if they were to see "Black Dragon King" downloading when they aren't supposed to know about it yet. ;) Allowing a GM to see where assets might be bottle-necking would be nice though.

If players could individually stop a particular asset from downloading and delete a partial and/or restart an asset for those times when they get "hung up" I do see that as a very good feature. Seeing that a larger asset is still downloading would also alleviate some fear that the program has stopped working (i.e. the common "I'm stuck on asset 124 of 125 and it won't finish loading!") Though not exactly a sexy Kickstarter feature, it does tackle a long standing and common bump-in-the-road for many new users. The problem is almost always:

1) It's a big asset and they didn't wait long enough to finish the download.
2) Their asset cache is corrupt and they need to delete it and redo the connection/download (probably often happens when they bail out of #1 above before an asset is finished downloading the first time).
3) They are using memory settings that are too low for that campaign and MT *is* getting hung up.

Being able to see if something is going on during the asset transfers would probably remove problem #1. Being able to restart/delete an asset dynamically during download would probably address #2. And getting an actual warning about low memory during asset transfers would deal with #3.

Again, good ideas for a more useable and friendly program, but probably not all that Kickstarter exciting. Delivering a more useable MT might open the door for a future Phase 2 Kickstarter though.

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 Post subject: Re: Mote Kickstarter: We are going LIVE!
PostPosted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 12:02 am 
Bone White wrote:
Lee, you may want to link to this thread from the Kickstarter page.


We've been mulling about this a bit. While we're under General Discussion, we do want respect that the project is not affiliated to RPTools. But we do have a good discussion going...

Bone White wrote:
One more question, in using MapTool, it has been a constant frustration for players who get stuck in a loop whilst loading, but no one has any indication of this. Will the host/GMs be able to view how much of the map/campaign each connected client has downloaded? This would allow for easier diagnosis of connection problems.


The progress bars do show the assets being loaded per map, and will indicate if there's something blocking the operation. We haven't made it verbose, but it shouldn't be hard to do, though we have a log viewer panel that should be used instead. It displays all dumps made to the logging file in real-time, and a user can switch log types on the fly.

Full Bleed wrote:
...It would be quite a spoiler if they were to see "Black Dragon King" downloading when they aren't supposed to know about it yet. ;) Allowing a GM to see where assets might be bottle-necking would be nice though.


:lol: that's the rub, what if the Black Dragon King's the one choking the queue? But I think main refence is the UID, so that wouldn't be problem beyond having to sift through assets using the obscure code. I took a look at what manages images, and it wasn't meant to be a blocking process, but one that fails safe. A user having problems with MapTool, however, shared a log file that showed uncaught failure.

Full Bleed wrote:
If players could individually stop a particular asset from downloading and delete a partial and/or restart an asset for those times when they get "hung up" I do see that as a very good feature. Seeing that a larger asset is still downloading would also alleviate some fear that the program has stopped working (i.e. the common "I'm stuck on asset 124 of 125 and it won't finish loading!") Though not exactly a sexy Kickstarter feature, it does tackle a long standing and common bump-in-the-road for many new users. The problem is almost always:

1) It's a big asset and they didn't wait long enough to finish the download.
2) Their asset cache is corrupt and they need to delete it and redo the connection/download (probably often happens when they bail out of #1 above before an asset is finished downloading the first time).
3) They are using memory settings that are too low for that campaign and MT *is* getting hung up.

Being able to see if something is going on during the asset transfers would probably remove problem #1. Being able to restart/delete an asset dynamically during download would probably address #2. And getting an actual warning about low memory during asset transfers would deal with #3.

Again, good ideas for a more useable and friendly program, but probably not all that Kickstarter exciting. Delivering a more useable MT might open the door for a future Phase 2 Kickstarter though.


We're leaning toward improving the current system. Currently, it is supposed to fail safe, earmarking a failed retrieval as "broken" and letting all observers know about it. We'll extend it by catching all references marked broken, clearing the cache of references found, and providing a dialog for users to selectively request for missing assets.

Yup, everything is dependent on what stage gets dev support. Ideally, in a perfect world where we get full support, we would be scrapping the current asset management system in favor of something we've written ourselves, to support the new mapping system. Barring that, it depends really on which Phase we end up in. HTML5 will require better image format support, as the current one relies on format specified in Java 1.1, with a failure catch using ImageIO (though that can fail as well with more modern formats).

We've been observing some peculiar trends while running this KS, while I'd like to share it to everyone, perhaps the best time for it would be after the run. It's just odd :D

We're not really worried about not meeting all goals, as soon as people start using Mote, we know the advocacy for subsequent runs will be a lot louder. It'd be nice if we get far, as running a KS means at least a month of not writing significant code.

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Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2009 4:40 am
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 Post subject: Re: Mote Kickstarter: We are going LIVE!
PostPosted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 4:02 am 
On the asset part:
Id are also terrible to use.


Maybe:
Gm sees:
1 Dragon
2 eagle
3 war boss
While player only see
1
2
3

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GETTING STARTED WITH MAPTOOLS - TUTORIALS, DOCS, VIDEOS, TOOLS, ETC

My stuff
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MT Tools: Bag of Tricks: Tools for Maptool, Dungeon Builder I, Dungeon Builder II,onMouseOverEvent and
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 Post subject: Re: Mote Kickstarter: We are going LIVE!
PostPosted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:15 am 
wolph42 wrote:
On the asset part:
Id are also terrible to use.


Maybe:
Gm sees:
1 Dragon
2 eagle
3 war boss
While player only see
1
2
3


Makes sense.

The assets are, presumably, already "numbered" given that the current MT does know when you've got 23 of 24 assets downloaded, etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Mote Kickstarter: We are going LIVE!
PostPosted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:31 am 
I thought about sending out some targeted emails... but I figure I'll just open this up here for discussion.


How about we see an announcement for the Mote Kickstarter in the Announcement forum (or, even better, a Mass Email to MT users) so people subscribed to the forum hear about it? There has been so little actual growth in MT over the last 3 years that many people just think it's been withering on the vine. I can guarantee that we are going to see more than one person say, months from now, "I thought MT was dead. I never even heard about the Mote Kickstarter! I would have supported it."

I know it's not "officially" supported by the "core" guys and RPTools (who haven't had time to do much for the last couple years)... but the fact is this thing is 90%+ finished and (if they hit their Kickstarter funding) will become the defacto Maptool to use until a version 2 comes out (if it ever comes out).

I think a simple disclaimer that this isn't an *official* RPTOOLS product should suffice... with a note that it is built on 1.3b89 (1.3b90?) and will be released as Open Source for continued Community Support and Development. An actual show of moral support, as was illustrated by Trevor and Gilliath in this thread, may go a long way.


On a related note, I don't know what the plans are for the RPTools forum by way of actual "support" of Mote (i.e subforum? hosting/mirroring the download?) but once Mote is released I don't see why there wouldn't be something here. I know those are two different issues (an Announcement and/or Email to MT users and a support sub-forum), but I think they are both worth serious consideration. Maybe even Poll worthy (not that our polls ever get much action ;)).

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 Post subject: Re: Mote Kickstarter: We are going LIVE!
PostPosted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 1:47 pm 
wolph42 wrote:
On the asset part:
Id are also terrible to use.


Maybe:
Gm sees:
1 Dragon
2 eagle
3 war boss
While player only see
1
2
3


Yup, it's what I was thinking too. Things are mostly too fast on the progress bar, but yeah, there will be value for having to see/interact with when things choke. It gives me an idea to draft an "action" panel sometime down the line.

@FullBleed Thanks for bringing that up. I hesitated because we're running this in parallel to the impending b90 release, which I'm sure people will be stoked about. I guess we'll wait on what you guys say, we're still busy trying to penetrate the blogosphere, another oddity we've encountered.

We're reviewing forum hosting for the eventuality of needing one in the future, but only to keep focus on development. We'd like to keep people here for everything else. For small snippets of information, we prefer the community, and will only need a larger text spread when the larger aspects start being worked on. It's up to you guys really where you prefer to talk :)

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 Post subject: Re: Mote Kickstarter: We are going LIVE!
PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 9:23 am 
BTW, if you need a another tester for the project, I would volunteer some of my time. I have some background in software and web portal QA.


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 Post subject: Re: Mote Kickstarter: We are going LIVE!
PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 5:09 am 
RedDog wrote:
BTW, if you need a another tester for the project, I would volunteer some of my time. I have some background in software and web portal QA.


Thanks RedDog. I'll keep that in mind :)

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 Post subject: Re: Mote Kickstarter: We are going LIVE!
PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 10:32 am 
I've been thinking for awhile that this is something that was needed for a long time. I'm wishing you guys the best and will definitely be watching this one very closely. :mrgreen:

EDIT: Also, count me in on helping kickstart this.

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 Post subject: Re: Mote Kickstarter: We are going LIVE!
PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 11:50 am 
Tsriel wrote:
I've been thinking for awhile that this is something that was needed for a long time. I'm wishing you guys the best and will definitely be watching this one very closely. :mrgreen:

EDIT: Also, count me in on helping kickstart this.


Please also help spreading the word outside of these forums if you can, everything helps :)


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 Post subject: Re: Mote Kickstarter: We are going LIVE!
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:25 pm 
Kickstarter is GO!

Love using Maptools, do so a couple times every week, kicked in for Mote.

My usage is one machine for DM, second for players with projector attached. Multiplicity for DM control of each machine, CH Products MFD for player control of characters.

Never found a good sound app to use and the possibility of animation is definite plus.

SteveG


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 Post subject: Re: Mote Kickstarter: We are going LIVE!
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:24 pm 
Getting closer, less than 1000 to meet the minimum with 9 days to go. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Mote Kickstarter: We are going LIVE!
PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 3:07 am 
Wow. Thanks for the sticky guys :)

Thank you as well to everyone who's been driving this project in their communities. Your help's been invaluable!

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 Post subject: Re: Mote Kickstarter: We are going LIVE!
PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:41 am 
Lee wrote:
Wow. Thanks for the sticky guys :)

Thank you as well to everyone who's been driving this project in their communities. Your help's been invaluable!



Np.

_________________
GETTING STARTED WITH MAPTOOLS - TUTORIALS, DOCS, VIDEOS, TOOLS, ETC

My stuff
Excel Tools: Table and Light editors
MT Tools: Bag of Tricks: Tools for Maptool, Dungeon Builder I, Dungeon Builder II,onMouseOverEvent and
DPI.
Frameworks: Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader, Deathwatch, Black Crusade, Only War, SET Card Game, RoboRally
Wiki: Debugging Tutorial, Speed Up Your Macros, Working With Two CODE Levels, Shortcut Keys, Avoiding Stack Overflow, READ THIS


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 Post subject: Re: Mote Kickstarter: We are going LIVE!
PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 5:04 am 
Hope you get the last ~460$ in the next 7 days. Increased my pledge a bit, who needs food anyways ^^


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