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Cave Troll
 
Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2015 12:57 am
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 Post subject: Re: Mote Kickstarter: We are going LIVE!
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 12:08 pm 
RPTroll wrote:
<pontificate>
Well, if we do things right you can have both. The hope is to set things up so web, mobile, whatever-comes-next can access the functionality without a major redesign for each iteration. Getting it there will be a redesign, however. We hope to attract new developers by putting an architecture together which allows folks to enhance their skill set vs. working in shelved-ware (i.e. swing).

That doesn't mean giving up on a thick client. It does mean exposing functionality that easily integrates with other stuff and allowing each platform to work as well as it can with the backend functionality. It's a cool problem and one I hope others will want to help solve. From my point of view the goal is not just to provide some cool gaming software but to improve and expand on people's skills.

It was always the community that made MapTool and the other tools great. It was their feedback to Trevor, Jay, Lee, Ryss, Az, Craig, and a bunch of others that shaped the functionality and content. I hope we regain that but only time will tell. Whatever happens it will be the community that to supports and determines what happens next not crowdfunding.

While I don't know what will happen next I do know that RPTools will always be free and open. If folks like Mote want to monetize that, more power to them. It might be the superior model. The RPTools founders believed otherwise. I'm going to try and honor that.
</pontificate>


That sounds like an awesome goal I can get behind. Still think we need updates in the meantime while we work on UtopiaTool, I mean, MapTool. ;-)


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TheBard
 
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 Post subject: Re: Mote Kickstarter: We are going LIVE!
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 12:29 pm 
Oh, I agree. So we need the knock list for what we want to do now the figure a way to work out the core for what comes next. BTW, I have some build instructions for MapTool 1.3 I'll post in a bit.

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 Post subject: Re: Mote Kickstarter: We are going LIVE!
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 4:09 pm 
I'm having a hard time getting behind MOTE personally. I gave em Kickstarter $$ so wish them well and will track it but everytime I launch it, some things just bug me how they changed things for the sake of changing things (looking at you Map Explorer -> TokenBar).

I've tried to open/convert several campaign files and it either fails or so many macro's are broken (even simple ones like setSight(1) fail). And they also seem to have a poor community front, a very sparse forums that I hardly see any communications/responses from the team.

IF I was starting from scratch, I would give it more time. But I have so much customization in my current MT/Framework that we now rely on using "Darkness" and HTTP functions to integrate with GDrive/HeroLab/Forums, that if I cant port those few functions into MOTE, I can't really use it.

If I wanted a closed system, I'd port to D20pro. So ya, I'll be sticking around here and helping with 1.4!

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 Post subject: Re: Mote Kickstarter: We are going LIVE!
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 4:32 pm 
Awesome. I'll likely dive in as well, not that my Java skills are all that hot but if we go the direction I think we're headed then I should be able to contribute.

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Cave Troll
 
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 Post subject: Re: Mote Kickstarter: We are going LIVE!
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 6:07 pm 
Jade wrote:
KaylaKaze wrote:
The reason I don't join the MT dev team is because MT is dead technology. It is not the future of VTT. Trying to keep it on life support is not the way to go. It needs a complete rebuild, from the ground up, as a no-download-needed solution for players (web interface). It needs SQL (or noSQL) database integration. It needs sound and sprite animation capabilities. It needs an industry standard macro language (JavaScript preferably). It needs to be able to be fully customizable by the GM without the players having to even be aware that changes were made (as in not having to download a modified version of the system, like you currently would if you modified MT for your game). This is what I had started building before Mote was announced; not for profit, but so that there would be a good VTT out there that had these features. When Lee announced Mote and showed (some of) these features, I said "Great! Someone competent is working on it already and I can go do something else."


I don't need any of those things in a VTT, and prefer a downloadable solution to a hosted web interface.



And I know people who prefer an old flip-phone to a smartphone. That doesn't make them correct. However I wasn't talking about a hosted web solution, but a GM hosted solution where the GM runs the server but players connect to the GM's hosted server via their browsers.


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 Post subject: Re: Mote Kickstarter: We are going LIVE!
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 6:15 pm 
RPTroll wrote:
Oh, I agree. So we need the knock list for what we want to do now the figure a way to work out the core for what comes next. BTW, I have some build instructions for MapTool 1.3 I'll post in a bit.


Great! I had made some edits to MT several years ago and managed to build with a lot of trial and error, but I've since forgotten what I did.


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 Post subject: Re: Mote Kickstarter: We are going LIVE!
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 6:19 pm 
JamzTheMan wrote:
we now rely on using "Darkness" and HTTP functions to integrate with GDrive/HeroLab/Forums


Can you expand on what you mean by that? Am I missing something big that MT is capable of or are these custom code hacks?


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Dragon
 
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 Post subject: Re: Mote Kickstarter: We are going LIVE!
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 6:23 pm 
@KaylaKaze: could you avoid posting several messages in a row, and instead edit your previous message to add whatever extra stuff you have to say? That's just good forum practice, and this way we don't all get notified every time you add something. Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Mote Kickstarter: We are going LIVE!
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 7:03 pm 
Thanks aliasMask, and sorry if my reply had some tinge to it. The lady I'm about to address below kind of brought that out of me ;)

smaudet2: You'll have to wait and see then. Personally, RPTools will never fade. Too many good people behind it. As bad as we're painted out to be, we know who the real good guys are.

Lee: Sorry to hear that, we were always ready to make it work for you, but you never come back to us beyond a couple of posts. Thank you for backing us back then. FWIW.

OK Kayla!
:lol: This is too funny. sorry, to laugh, but this is getting ridiculous.

Before going into this, we declare that you win by virtue of you likely having the last word. We won't be troubling RPTools more than we've already had, regardless of how we think of your opinions.

KaylaKaze wrote:
You said right on that page announcing Mote-X, right at the very top "The free version of Mote will now enter maintenance mode, shepherding it, with the community of users' help, in getting it to an ever more stable state. This is not to say nothing new will be added to the free version, because we will do so when needed, but the primary objective is to offer a stable application to grow our community with." Anyone familiar with software knows what "maintenance mode" means. It's what MapTool has been in for the last several years.


Sigh. Did you miss the part about adding new stuff "when needed"? It's in the supporting statement to the first, if you didn't catch that they should be read together, along with the 3rd statement. Paraphrasing it for you, the code will be brought to stability by not introducing destabilizing new features into the mix; new features will still make it in, but not before Mote becomes usable to any type of user. Unlike in MapTool, it won't have a "feature freeze". Did we even say "FEATURE FREEZE" anywhere? So, once again, you are wrong in your interpretation and how you choose to react to it.

KaylaKaze wrote:
As far as trying to challenge Roll20 with Mote-X, the problem is more than just ease of use. You need a non-download, full web-based solution if you want a piece of that action. You seem to agree that it really is just hosted MapTool but want to wrap it in marketing speak to make it sound like more and then want to chastise me for saying what it really is. And I have no problem with you charging for a product. What I have a problem with is breaking dozens of KS promises and then trying to sell other people's work (ie MapTool) as your own by adding a few bells and whistles.


No, we (Idle Ideas) don't need a "non-download, full web based solution" aka a carbon copy Roll20. Only someone without a clue would think that to win against an opponent is to start from scratch and do exactly what the giants have been doing successfully for years. We are quite confident that the answer lies in an alternative, and we have faith in the alternative we described, not that we have any inclination to become as big as they (Roll20) are.

Roll20 is still a client-server scheme with the browser being the client. They hoard all the "magic" that goes behind rendering a view of the game session all on their side, triggering browsers to update, and the cost they pay for that is the limits they set to keep down costs and maximize profit; the same limits that prevent others from accessing their "advanced" features and "dev" servers. A downloadable, unlicensed application gives full control to the user, and all the power that Roll20 cannot completely give to its users, much less to all of them. If you take time-out from oozing lava, and put on your developer cap and start drafting the architecture, you wouldn't be missing so many points, not least of which, we were talking in dev speak, and were not marketing anything (maybe that's the problem here).

While you have that cap on, you can also think about how wrong a picture "hosted MapTool" is. Is it your understanding we'll be putting the MapTool binary server-side, and churn instances out for people who want it? Think again.

How hard is it for you to comprehend what we've already told you here and on several other posts? Mote, as it is, as it will be, is now in the public domain, and will always be free, with the source code to be delivered at a future date, though we doubt the RPTools team has any need for it, not when they are more than capable of writing more elegant solutions of their own. Mote-X will eventually be its own unique VTT; its source code will share nothing with MapTool, once we're through. While getting to that point, users who opt in early will see it steadily shed MT aspects for something we put in to replace it.

The key word is "opt", some will want to be privy early on, some will wait until everything is done, but this is always a CHOICE. And last time we checked our "marketing", Mote-X is what we were "selling", not Mote. It is obvious to anyone who deliberates over what we've said to our community that we will submit our work to scrutiny, as we've said that top supporters will have free / easier access to our work for the whole period. It is the relation of their anecdotal experiences, and not the sort of con-game rep you keep accusing us of, that our project will operate under. We've said this 2, 3, and maybe 4 times to you already, but, apparently, you conveniently glazed your eyes over these points.

And please, for the sake of the upfront respect members of this forum have for people they don't know, go over our KS and see that we have kept our promises to the goals we were funded for. It's obvious that you love to skim through stuff without much deliberation, and that's fine if it's just you, but it's not when you're misrepresenting other people, especially when we're still actively working on the project. We'd understand if we upped and walked away with ****loads of cash, and not delivering anything, but in this case, aren't you overreacting to us still at work, holding about ZERO bucks in our hands?

If someone becomes interested in the Mote project after 4(?), or 5 years of waiting on MapTool, this can hardly be considered "poaching", or am I wrong? What business is it of yours anyway? You didn't back us, we didn't knock on your door to force you to support us, you still have MapTool, and we gave you Mote in all of its PROMISED Phase 1 "glory"/infamy. What more do you want us to do? OVERDELIVER?! Okay, sure, for the sake of argument, but how FAR? All the way to the last phase, maybe? For the funding you think we got, but never did? Is that your idea of promises kept? Oh no, not in our books, ma'am.

So, once again, Kayla, we ask you give things a little thought, preferably over a period longer than 10 seconds, before you spew.

KaylaKaze wrote:
And then, you've just admitted that there are parts of the features that were promised as part of the KS that you're intentionally holding back so that you can sell. And you're wondering why I have a problem with this?


Of course, I'm wondering about the things that get your panties in a bunch. What part of doing as we will with code we wrote and own that you find so offensive? You didn't write anything, none of it is RPTools', and last time we checked, b87 was under Apache 2.0, so the integration involved for our ORIGINAL source to work with the MapTool code still attributes to us, to do as we will. I have a BIG problem about your habit of taking what we say completely out of context. You're not even quoting us correctly!

idle_ideas wrote:
A part of the reason for the "sparsity" you find in Mote is that we've written and reserved aspects of the project, for Mote-X, both because we never got support for these to be put in Mote, and because releasing these be the best way to gain support and sustain interest in the project. These have no direct tie-in to MapTool, will exist as unique features of Mote-X, and were completely written by our team, so I really don't see how or why this offends you so much.


Paraphrasing for you again, since you seem to have difficulty following long sentences: We have reserved written code that never got support to be put in Mote. Big Hint: We weren't funded for it during the first KS. We will use these features to drive interest in supporting Idle Ideas. We need this support to finally be able to work full time and finish the project, because, try as hard as we might, we can't photosynthesize, and our families like having us at home, rather than out on the grind.

These features exist by themselves. They don't need MapTool to work, but we plan to integrate it into the branched Mote code anyway, steadily turning it into Mote-X, since it's better to give end user something they can actually use, rather than YouTube videos showcasing proof-of-concepts. For example, the Javascript feature will work in MapTool's map system, Mote-X' system, heck it can likely run Roll20's scripts with enough duct taping. This means this feature is agnostic / unbound / independent of the VTT you are defending for all the wrong reasons. All Mote-X features are such, how else would these exist once all of the MapTool code gets replaced?

Again, we haven't gone anywhere, and we're committed to seeing these projects get out there. If people think this something worth getting behind, we happily accept their support, and will work hard to deliver. I don't know where you're from, but that's what most can call a fair deal.

While the whole idea may stick to your craw, no one can say we exploited source code that was made freely available under a commercially friendly license like Apache 2.0. People who support the spirit of licenses like Apache aren't really supporting it when they "feel bad" when someone comes along and takes it to a commercial level. These are people who can't see that the commercial opportunities provided to creators will allow them to give something of value back, and thrive while doing so, so that they can make more good stuff. So, if you're one of these half-supporters, you're not really an "Apache" but a "GPLer", so save your self-righteousness and protests for when RPTools publishes their stuff under GPL-like conditions, and someone comes along and makes a copy of it the way we did. Again, you could one-up and join their team. We acknowledge that they're very good, even better than we are, and the new volunteers all sound like eager beavers. It's your fight to lose! The only takeaway we have is that we're more likely able to work consistently on ours, and with more diligence. All the players here worth their salt have cushy day jobs that they won't drop just to please people like you. Though we can easily be proven wrong, RPTools could indeed get a shot in the arm and work to compete aggressively. The recent verbiage around here seems to point to it.

KaylaKaze wrote:
The reason I don't join the MT dev team is because MT is dead technology. It is not the future of VTT. Trying to keep it on life support is not the way to go. It needs a complete rebuild, from the ground up, as a no-download-needed solution for players (web interface). It needs SQL (or noSQL) database integration. It needs sound and sprite animation capabilities. It needs an industry standard macro language (JavaScript preferably). It needs to be able to be fully customizable by the GM without the players having to even be aware that changes were made (as in not having to download a modified version of the system, like you currently would if you modified MT for your game). This is what I had started building before Mote was announced; not for profit, but so that there would be a good VTT out there that had these features. When Lee announced Mote and showed (some of) these features, I said "Great! Someone competent is working on it already and I can go do something else."


That's your VTT take, and it is indeed plausible. No one's stopping you from correcting your mistake about relying on us to deliver everything on the KS without checking how much we actually got funded. You can always write the VTT we, and the rest of the planet that didn't back our KS, so cruelly prevented you from doing. But wait, you still could have wrote your VTT regardless. It's not our fault you foisted this notions on us to bear without our knowledge, and without clarifying some facts for yourself. You have indeed misconstrued everything by the demonizing of our work, and getting angry over it.

The point you seem to be missing, be it intentional or not, is that to get from point A to point B by the method of route C, the parameters never change. Point A being MapTool, point B being Mote-X, and route C being funded, full-time development. Whether provided by the KS, or accumulated through the purchase of Mote-X and related services, the figure at the bottom line does not change. It is still needed, for everything we've specifically itemized so far, and more. A fact you choose to ignore. Idle Ideas didn't win the PowerBall, you know. It's not even sure that the idea will even succeed, much less turn a profit and what we'll do with it if we do, and you're already s*****ng on it. Talk about being paranoid.

The whole point of the Mote Project was Lee's idea that while the volunteer route was great in producing MapTool, how about getting to "2.0" through funded (yes, non-profit) development? Unfortunately, he's a sneeze away right now from being completely unable to walk, so his ideals and vision doesn't really count right now, at least not for the team that picked this project up in his absence. Plans needed to be changed for the benefit of people actually doing the work, get over it.

If there was anything we over-delivered on, it is that we kept working on this without getting anything from the KS. I don't know about you, but some people are willing to call that commitment. We think you're crazy to think we should keep at this, pro-bono, indefinitely. We're not RPTools, and RPTools will never put up the services that we plan to make, and still stay who they are. They can obviously make such a gift to their community with their eyes closed, with one hand tied behind their back, and only two fingers typing, all done over a "month of weekends". Heck, they could have done it years ago. But why didn't they? Why did they just rely on a register server, manual port forwarding, and UPnP, when there were so many who want to adopt and love their tool, but couldn't get it to work? They obviously know this was needed, so, again, why? Someone has to end up footing the bill, right? We know that, they know that, and you know that. Once up, someone has to maintain it too. We all know that. Who'll be the stupid wart that will do it for free, much worse, with money right out of his pockets? That's just insane. Our last names aren't Buffet.

You can keep being indignant and all, but the truth is, there are people interested in what we're doing; the letters we've been receiving are proof enough of that. All of these people don't even mind if it's just Mote that will be running through the servers; all they want is something better than Roll20, while still being hassle-free. Did we say, "Great! Now throw money at us. Immediately." We didn't. We said that they should wait until the 1st Mote-X and the services are out, test it, and if they like it, they can then give us permission to keep their money. Why does that not sound remotely fair to you? Who do you think we'll end up listening to? And how is this different if we do a KS? Wait, we ARE doing a KS for the services. Who'd have thought...

KaylaKaze wrote:
You've already let your supporters down. You did that back in September when there was radio silence for over a month... a month when you were supposed to have been putting out your product. While we understand the circumstances surrounding that situation, it was still a let down. If you look back at the conversations from then, you'd see I was the one standing up for you guys, though. And then the constant release promises and delays started coming, and I started getting cynical that you'd ever actually release anything. And then, when you finally do release, it's so overwhelmingly disappointing that the only thing I could even think of as being remotely close (from a hype vs payoff standpoint) was the original ending of Mass Effect 3 or anything Peter Molyneux has been involved with in the past several years.

....And I may have been overly harsh as to the quality of what HAS been done. They sound like decent additions (and the macro editor does seem especially solid) but when compared to the foundation of promises/lies that Mote was originally supposedly launched from, they're extremely underwhelming.


We keep coming back to the notion that you somehow want everything to automagically happen, having your cake and eating it too. For all of what you did when you went to "do something else", the glaring point here is that you have all these unfounded expectations from us, but you didn't back us, and now your giving us this?

But thank you for standing up for us back then. Personally, I didn't see it transpire because I was busy on something else. But if there was anyone we owe anything to, it's the group that were slated for that month. We personally reached out to these supporters to apologize, and unlike you, they were more forgiving. Since that time, I don't think anyone, beyond you, can fault our effort. As someone who was not even part of the closed beta, you can't be serious in thinking we have an obligation to you during that period, do you? Yes, we want to please you, and people like you, but being obligated? I don't think so. While we appreciate the kind of support you gave, the only thing we were serious about that time was our business relationship with our backers, as cold as that may sound. Last time we checked, we have kept to the schedule most of the time, so sorry again to those who've already forgiven us for missing a month.

And to keep kicking a dead horse, if you expected Phase 5 results from Phase 1 level funding, then yes, we completely agree that you should be monumentally disappointed with the output, but please keep it to yourself until you can equate our work with what we actually had to work with. If you're able to do that, and the results still don't shine a wee twinkle in your eye then, honestly, you're the only one, at the moment, to say so. (Team member 1: But wait a minute, there was NO funding... idle_ideas: sssshhhh.).

You should know by now why the delays happened, right? Good, I don't need to explain that part. If it makes you happy, we're still waiting on those collaborations, so you just might get your wish of us sinking in the end.

KaylaKaze wrote:
And for those that don't read dev speak, that up there means "Yeah, we're not releasing the source code."


(skimming again, eh?)
"Up there", in our reply to RPTroll, we said we will. We only get to be called liars if we never do, but you'd have to wait until all of us in Idle Ideas are dead before you get the opportunity to do so. Oh yeah, but you already did, didn't you? Oh well, my loss. That's 2, and just on this post. I have half the mind to ask the team to stretch the delivery out till we're 50.

Tabletop enthusiasts are generally smart enough to know a skunk when they smell one. Feel free to bring your cause to them, since it's them you need to save from our evil designs, correct? Possessed with such enlightenment unheard of since the time of Jesus, I'm sure the flock will veer away from us wolves in no time.

Weeeeeell, I've built my wall of text and will let it stand to service anyone who comes along and wants to take a piss on it. As a lady keyboard warrior myself, I just couldn't stand being judged before I am through with what I'm doing. Sorry gents of the forums, this is how women get back when they find another woman with standing hair, baring fangs and claws at them. Well, I hope I'm right in thinking that Kayla is a lady's name. If you're a dude, dude, then sorry for the b******g, man.

It's obvious that a lot here think we're "villains" when held in contrast to the RPTools spirit. We never wanted to claim the high road, not after what we've been through. So we accept this as something we cannot change.

They say the worth of a person's life can only judged when looking back at its entirety. The same can be said for a work in progress. Nobody on our side is perfect, but we're doing our best to finish what we started. Life gives opportunity for redemption, and everyone is supposed to have that right. We're still alive, but you've already killed us in your head. We're done here.

Thanks to everyone else for being gracious about my rant. It's the last one ever, and that's a promise ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Mote Kickstarter: We are going LIVE!
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:40 pm 
I've seen it from developers over and over. I apologize if what II ultimately brings eventually isn't the same BS thousands of other developers have ultimately delivered while saying the exact same things you have been. I've seen promising looking VTTs being kickstarted and garbage being what they ultimately deliver. And I've seen the uneducated masses looking at that garbage and thinking it's the only VTT in town. I'm sick of crud developers giving developers as a whole a bad name.

Quote:
What business is it of yours anyway? You didn't back us, we didn't knock on your door to force you to support us,

I've learned from quite a few KS projects to NEVER back ANYONE. Had you delivered an impressive public release, something that actually made it seem like Mote was worth getting behind, THEN I would have been happy to help fund the project.

Quote:
Sigh. Did you miss the part about adding new stuff "when needed"? It's in the supporting statement to the first, if you didn't catch that they should be read together, along with the 3rd statement. Paraphrasing it for you, the code will be brought to stability by not introducing destabilizing new features into the mix; new features will still make it in, but not before Mote becomes usable to any type of user. Unlike in MapTool, it won't have a "feature freeze". Did we even say "FEATURE FREEZE" anywhere? So, once again, you are wrong in your interpretation and how you choose to react to it.


Maybe your team could work on your communication skills a bit and actually express what you're trying to say accurately the first time. "Maintenance mode" and "feature freeze" are the same thing. It means bug fixes only. If that's not what you meant, you shouldn't have said it. "Adding new stuff when needed," to a developer, again means bug fixes, because nothing else is technically needed. If it really is a matter of miscommunication (either II's or mine) I apologize for my harsh statements about this specific matter and retract anything I've said related to it. But I guess time will tell.

Quote:
You can keep being indignant and all, but the truth is, there are people interested in what we're doing; the letters we've been receiving are proof enough of that. All of these people don't even mind if it's just Mote that will be running through the servers; all they want is something better than Roll20, while still being hassle-free.


Actually, I have no problem with the concept of hosted MT (or Mote). I think it's a good idea. What I don't like is II giving the appearance of "Yeah, we're not going to bother with this thing we've been hyping and you all backed anymore. We have this new thing that we want you to back instead."

Quote:
We personally reached out to these supporters to apologize, and unlike you, they were more forgiving.


You mean like the one ranting about calling his lawyer because he backed and you weren't delivering or even communicating?

Quote:
But thank you for standing up for us back then. Personally, I didn't see it transpire because I was busy on something else. But if there was anyone we owe anything to, it's the group that were slated for that month. We personally reached out to these supporters to apologize, and unlike you, they were more forgiving. Since that time, I don't think anyone, beyond you, can fault our effort. As someone who was not even part of the closed beta, you can't be serious in thinking we have an obligation to you during that period, do you?


You don't have an obligation to me at all, but neither do I have an obligation to you to withhold my opinion on your work when you make it public.

Quote:
And please, for the sake of the upfront respect members of this forum have for people they don't know, go over our KS and see that we have kept our promises to the goals we were funded for.


Actually, no. The Kickstarter was funded at 8k, which is Phase 2, not Phase 1. Though, since like I mentioned there's no broad new features list yet, I may have missed the wizards and fully skinnable UI. Maybe we could go through the phase 1 changelog/checklist here http://mote-kickstarter.weebly.com/phas ... gelog.html and see what on there has ACTUALLY been implemented? Maybe we should discuss other parts of the KS page? Such as "Gaming on and off the cloud, and headless mode - We have a new mantra for the tabletop community "Full features for FREE™!". Try repeating it like 5x, and it will grown on you. Mote will never hide or expose features based on how much money you gave us. On the development run, leading all the way to the final public release, everyone, will get Mote at full power, warts and all, to do as they please. We only ask that you help Idle Ideas achieve its community ideals of creativity, helpfulness, generosity, and freedom." or "Alternate data manipulation, hosting, and dissemination - Simply put: databases, web services, and push systems for auto updating, and information delivery."

Quote:
If there was anything we over-delivered on, it is that we kept working on this without getting anything from the KS. I don't know about you, but some people are willing to call that commitment. We think you're crazy to think we should keep at this, pro-bono, indefinitely.


If that's the state you were in with II, then I think you're crazy for doing it in the first place. You would have been better served to drop the Mote baggage and do your own thing. Also, it would have prevented you from seeming like you should be held accountable for what was said in the KS, which even I'll admit you probably shouldn't be if you received none of the funds. If you want to argue that you shouldn't have to be tied to it, I'll be on your side for that, but if you want to try to say that you've stuck to it, I'll have to call BS.

Quote:
No, we (Idle Ideas) don't need a "non-download, full web based solution" aka a carbon copy Roll20. Only someone without a clue would think that to win against an opponent is to start from scratch and do exactly what the giants have been doing successfully for years. We are quite confident that the answer lies in an alternative, and we have faith in the alternative we described, not that we have any inclination to become as big as they (Roll20) are.


Also, I mentioned in another post (I'll give you the benefit of a doubt that you hadn't seen it before starting your wall) that I wasn't talking about a hosted system, but one where the GM ran the server and players connected via http. Considering it'd be written in JS, CSS, HTML, and possibly PHP (though I hadn't decided for sure whether PHP or Node would be best for the server), it'd be even more open for user control than an executable or jar. That's far from being a clone of Roll20. It also allows relatively painless capability to allow your players to play from any device that has an HTML5 capable web browser. Such a system could possibly also be able to function fairly painlessly as a SaaS application like Roll20 so that GM's that aren't tech savvy enough to run the server themselves can still use many of the system's strengths and those that are can offer services for a small fee (similar to how so many Minecraft server providers popped up, or how many web hosting providers run Apache). In actuality, the system I had in mind was made up of interchangeable modules that communicated with each other, so if someone wanted to build a sound module for it or replace the 2D map with a 3D map system (using WebGL), it'd just be a matter of adding an addon module or changing the map module. That's user control and that's the future of VTT.


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Great Wyrm
 
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 Post subject: Re: Mote Kickstarter: We are going LIVE!
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 11:38 pm 
KaylaKaze wrote:
JamzTheMan wrote:
we now rely on using "Darkness" and HTTP functions to integrate with GDrive/HeroLab/Forums


Can you expand on what you mean by that? Am I missing something big that MT is capable of or are these custom code hacks?


Custom, as to not hikak the thread, see links in my sig.



@Lee, some of the issue I have may be a learning curve as well. Can you host a video on how to use the new features? And just to be clear, my reluctance isn't so much any fault of MOTE itself, like I said, for a new user, it's better in a lot of ways and really envy the macro editor. But I have several customizations I rely on, so until I see the MOTE source code to reimplement I'll have to stick around here.

I don't fault you for trying to make a living, I just enjoy the challenges and community the open source provides. Good luck, hope to see you some year at GenCon pimping your warez! :)

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 Post subject: Re: Mote Kickstarter: We are going LIVE!
PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 10:26 am 
Jade wrote:
KaylaKaze wrote:
The reason I don't join the MT dev team is because MT is dead technology. It is not the future of VTT. Trying to keep it on life support is not the way to go. It needs a complete rebuild, from the ground up, as a no-download-needed solution for players (web interface). It needs SQL (or noSQL) database integration. It needs sound and sprite animation capabilities. It needs an industry standard macro language (JavaScript preferably). It needs to be able to be fully customizable by the GM without the players having to even be aware that changes were made (as in not having to download a modified version of the system, like you currently would if you modified MT for your game). This is what I had started building before Mote was announced; not for profit, but so that there would be a good VTT out there that had these features. When Lee announced Mote and showed (some of) these features, I said "Great! Someone competent is working on it already and I can go do something else."


I don't need any of those things in a VTT, and prefer a downloadable solution to a hosted web interface.

+1

For all those who are using it face to face, "all web" is a no go.


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 Post subject: Re: Mote Kickstarter: We are going LIVE!
PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 10:55 am 
JML wrote:
For all those who are using it face to face, "all web" is a no go.

Personally I would prefer a browser client for players. I would still want to run my own server. There is really no reason why a browser client wouldn't work for face to face, I just would not want to be forced into using a hosted service, I would want to host myself (like we do now).


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 Post subject: Re: Mote Kickstarter: We are going LIVE!
PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 3:24 pm 
There's nothing stopping both. A fat client can host a web service, see 1.4 beta for just that. Eventually I see the webapi showing the Map and allow token movement. The processing could be shunted client side and the client could be remote hosted.

I would not say MT is a "dead" technology. Given it's free and supported by those in there spare time, it moves slowly at times but it remains alive despite roll20, d20pro, mote, fantasy grounds, etc, etc.

Trust me, if those other tools offered everything MT did and better, I probably wouldn't be here. I have plenty of hobbies to consume my time with. But I see a lot of potential still while keeping my eye on other VTT's.

Speaking of, I was pretty envious of d20pro's Unlimited alpha preview for site/FoW. It looks JUST like MT now BUT it was doing it real time (ie as you moved the token FoW was exposed) and it was FAST. I suspect they must be using ray tracing.

MOTE also has some improved FoW, I'm definitely keeping an eye on that whether it's MOTE or MOTE-X.

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 Post subject: Re: Mote Kickstarter: We are going LIVE!
PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 4:30 pm 
With roll20 and as a gm, I have a problem with real time reveal of FOW where it doesn't show areas explored. I can essentially look at an entire map without the GM knowing it as long as I move my token back to the starting position.

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