Wants

Discussion of initiative tool.

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gfrantsen
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Wants

Post by gfrantsen »

Is this where I would post a want?
Feel free to move this post if it belongs somewhere else.

I have a want.
I would like to be able to create a wait state that ends automatically.
For example: Stunned. Game rules say this actor misses his next turn. I set the state on an actor and they skip the next turn but become "unstunned" immediately after.
I could either set the amount of time or leave it blank and have the tool prompt me for number of turns.
Otherwise I have to spend a lot of extra effort tracking how many turns they are in this state or setting a separate timer.
I picture it having a countdown like the timers do so I could tell at a glance how many more rounds a particular wait state will last and the ability to turn it off (just like the current wait states).
Also, if the wait state hides the actor, when it ends it would become unhidden.

Is this doable?

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jay
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Post by jay »

This is where you post wants. The more the merrier!

In the 1.1 version I added a flag to a wait state to make it go away on the next turn. That would handle your case but wouldn't handle any case where it takes more than one round. That is what the timers are for. In the 1.1 version I plan to add the ability to write scripts for game specific functions. That way you could press a button and have it create the timer automatically. You could make the script also turn on the wait state and the script for the timer expiration turn it off. I've already done something like this for the conditions in D&D which also has the concept of stunned for x rounds. It can add modifiers to the properties of the combatant so that their combat stats are changed for a certain amount of time. Would that ability suffice?

gfrantsen
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Post by gfrantsen »

I was thinking more of the case where you are "out of combat" for some number of rounds based on a save or some other criteria.
I wouldn't want to have to track it with a timer, especially if it effects more than one individual (area effect) for a variable amount of time (d6 rounds) for example.
It would be so much easier to just select the actor, click the "stunned" button and enter a 3 or 2 or 1 or whatever number of rounds they are stunned for. It would also be nice to have an "until further notice" type button for effects that continue until some other criteria besides time is met, like a successful save or something.
The tool would skip them on their subsequent actions until the effect wore off or was removed. If someone recovered prematurely (healing or magic or subsequent save) I could just select them and turn off the wait state.
This would especially be good for large groups, like stunning a 8 out of 15 enemies for variable amounts of time.

If I have to add a new timer for each actor, remember which actor each one is for, make sure the timer is on the correct initiative, and then remember not to give them an action (since they are NOT being skipped) it would be a pain.
It also adds a lot of extra lines to the window (1 for each timer) that would really muddy up the display.

Doing it this way would require 3 short actions - select the actor, click the button, enter the time, select OK (ok so it's 4 short actions).
Simple. Elegant.


Am I being clear? Sometimes ideas don't come across in e-mails as clearly as when I say it in person.

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jay
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Post by jay »

gfrantsen wrote:I was thinking more of the case where you are "out of combat" for some number of rounds based on a save or some other criteria.
The wait states have the 'out of combat' built into them already. Just go to the Wait States tab in the Tools->Game Settings dialg and check the Auto skip box and the combatants will remain in the list but will be automatically skipped each round.
gfrantsen wrote:I wouldn't want to have to track it with a timer, especially if it effects more than one individual (area effect) for a variable amount of time (d6 rounds) for example.
It would be so much easier to just select the actor, click the "stunned" button and enter a 3 or 2 or 1 or whatever number of rounds they are stunned for. It would also be nice to have an "until further notice" type button for effects that continue until some other criteria besides time is met, like a successful save or something.
The tool would skip them on their subsequent actions until the effect wore off or was removed. If someone recovered prematurely (healing or magic or subsequent save) I could just select them and turn off the wait state.
This would especially be good for large groups, like stunning a 8 out of 15 enemies for variable amounts of time.

If I have to add a new timer for each actor, remember which actor each one is for, make sure the timer is on the correct initiative, and then remember not to give them an action (since they are NOT being skipped) it would be a pain.
I actually think that it would be easier to enter a bunch of players on a timer. You can add multiple players to a single timer so it would just be a click on the add timer button, type a name, type rounds, and click each combatant that is affected. The way you are suggesting is much more difficult for multiple combatants because you can only change the wait state for one combatant at a time. So you would have to repeat it for each combatant while the timer is just done once.

I'm not sure if I understand what you mean by the 'until further notice' functionality. The wait states already work this way. You start them and stop them as needed and they allow combatants to be skipped. Was there something else you needed them to do for this?

What the timers do not do right now is assign a wait state to the combatants affected by the timer. But I think that adding that is a very good idea. That will allow the items to be skipped or hidden until the timer expires or a combatant is removed from the timer. I'll write a tracker for it.
gfrantsen wrote:It also adds a lot of extra lines to the window (1 for each timer) that would really muddy up the display.
You can have timers hidden until the expire. Go to the Timer Types tab in the Tools->Game Settings dialog and check the Auto hide button. That keeps the timer out of the list so it doesn't clutter things up.
gfrantsen wrote:Doing it this way would require 3 short actions - select the actor, click the button, enter the time, select OK (ok so it's 4 short actions).
Simple. Elegant.
The problem is that you would have to repeat it once for each combatant. If there are a bunch of them it would actually take longer to do. I don't like the fact that now every time you set a wait state a dialog box pops up, that makes it harder to use the simple states that are never timed.
gfrantsen wrote:Am I being clear? Sometimes ideas don't come across in e-mails as clearly as when I say it in person.
I think so :-) If not my answers probably suck. I misunderstand what people are asking on the forums often so I feel your pain. We'll just work on it until we get our individual points across.

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Post by gfrantsen »

I think you might be missing my point.

Each combatant would need a different timer.
Let's say I have an area effect spell that takes a combatant out of combat for a number of rounds based on how badly they blow a saving throw.
EACH combatant could easily be out for a different number of rounds. Now, I can either set up a timer for EACH combatant, worry about getting all the settings correct so that each one will be hidden until they expire, make sure they are on the correct initiative, make sure I manually put each combatant in a wait state, and then MANUALLY un-wait them when the timers expire - OR - I can simply click on the combatant, click on the "stunned" wait state button, enter the rounds, and I'm done.
No fuss, no muss. No extra timers, no manually adding wait states, no manually removing wait states - the wait state simply expires.
Also, I wouldn't have to hide/unhide timers in order to see how many rounds were left.
Using your method, my display would be extremely cluttered unless I hid the timers - in which case I wouldn't know when they were going to expire.
My way, all the information you need is on 1 line. Period.

The "until further notice" option would have the optional ability to raise a flag for the GM so the GM could ask the player for another save. For example, the player is under a mind control spell that will last until a save is successfully made. The tool would pop a window to prompt the GM to ask the player for the save and would display a "Remove wait state - yes or no" prompt with "yes" and "no" buttons.
Alternately, some spells or effects can last until a save is made OR specific time has passed - whichever comes first.
The expiring wait state could have the option to prompt each round AND auto expire after a certain time.
Of course it would be nice to have a custom display so the display could say something like "Remove wait state - yes or no" and the second like would say whatever we wanted like "make a fortitude save DC 20" for example.

I'm not saying to remove all timers. Not at all. I'm saying that when the wait state has a specific expiration time it would be SO much easier to put the timer IN the wait state, not maintain it separately.

Of course, having the ability to multi-select players and click the wait-state button would be nice. Then, as you enter the information, there would be a check box for "apply to all selected players". That would give the option of cycling through each player and entering a number of rounds or applying the entry to all players or not.

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jay
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Post by jay »

gfrantsen wrote:I think you might be missing my point.
Yes I was :oops: I hadn't thought about each combatant getting its own specific timer.
gfrantsen wrote:Each combatant would need a different timer.
Let's say I have an area effect spell that takes a combatant out of combat for a number of rounds based on how badly they blow a saving throw.
EACH combatant could easily be out for a different number of rounds. Now, I can either set up a timer for EACH combatant, worry about getting all the settings correct so that each one will be hidden until they expire, make sure they are on the correct initiative, make sure I manually put each combatant in a wait state, and then MANUALLY un-wait them when the timers expire - OR - I can simply click on the combatant, click on the "stunned" wait state button, enter the rounds, and I'm done.
No fuss, no muss. No extra timers, no manually adding wait states, no manually removing wait states - the wait state simply expires.
Also, I wouldn't have to hide/unhide timers in order to see how many rounds were left.
Using your method, my display would be extremely cluttered unless I hid the timers - in which case I wouldn't know when they were going to expire.
My way, all the information you need is on 1 line. Period.
Now I understand what you are asking. I can do this but it does have a couple of problems:
  • The 'timer' would always expire on the combatants initiative, not the initiative that the spell was cast. On some games this is important.
  • You can only have one state on a combatant at a time.
The wait states weren't designed to show conditions that apply to a combatant but just to show that a combatant isn't acting on its normal initiative for whatever reason. I want to keep them that simple as it makes Init Tool very easy to use for new GMs. The timers should be used for the more complex cases.
gfrantsen wrote:The "until further notice" option would have the optional ability to raise a flag for the GM so the GM could ask the player for another save. For example, the player is under a mind control spell that will last until a save is successfully made. The tool would pop a window to prompt the GM to ask the player for the save and would display a "Remove wait state - yes or no" prompt with "yes" and "no" buttons.
Alternately, some spells or effects can last until a save is made OR specific time has passed - whichever comes first.
The expiring wait state could have the option to prompt each round AND auto expire after a certain time.
Of course it would be nice to have a custom display so the display could say something like "Remove wait state - yes or no" and the second like would say whatever we wanted like "make a fortitude save DC 20" for example.
In the 1.1 version you can do this by writing custom scripts for your wait states. Each different wait state can have a script that will be called each time a player receives initiative. The script can display anything that is needed to the GM.
gfrantsen wrote:I'm not saying to remove all timers. Not at all. I'm saying that when the wait state has a specific expiration time it would be SO much easier to put the timer IN the wait state, not maintain it separately.
If you can live with the limitations of wait states (listed above) then I see no reason not to add this feature. I'll add a tracker for it. I'm thinking that an extension to the timer support might also help with this feature. I could make it so that the GM could set the number of rounds until expiration for each combatant. That will make it easier to enter the data for multiple combatants. I'm going to add a tracker for that as well.
gfrantsen wrote:Of course, having the ability to multi-select players and click the wait-state button would be nice. Then, as you enter the information, there would be a check box for "apply to all selected players". That would give the option of cycling through each player and entering a number of rounds or applying the entry to all players or not.
I understand what you are saying but making the encounter multi-select makes all of the other commands that work on the selected items more confusing. I'd like to keep it simple for the new users.

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