HERO Support in Init Tool

Discussion of initiative tool.

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kharney
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Post by kharney »

Thanks for the fast response, Jay!

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Post by Phergus »

jay wrote:I am wanting to start on the group support for HERO and DQ after I finished with attaching multiple timers (think conditions) to the combatants. I have almost finished this, I just need to figure out how to display the multiple timers in the list and table views of the encounter.
Cool. An early Christmas present perhaps.

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mudpyr8
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Post by mudpyr8 »

Rock on. Whatever info you need, I'm ready to dish it out.
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Narosia * Sea of Tears, a complete fantasy game powered by the Hero System.

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Post by kharney »

I'll be happy to lend a hand as well. In both requirements and providing code. :) (If you'd like, anyway)

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mudpyr8
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Post by mudpyr8 »

So, with the new Phase support... how do we use it? Is there documentation for InitTool I can read anywhere?

Thanks.
Legendsmiths presents:
NOVA6, streamlined universal RPG where action happens at the speed of narrative
Narosia * Sea of Tears, a complete fantasy game powered by the Hero System.

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mudpyr8
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Post by mudpyr8 »

I created a property, set Phases to use that, but then nothing happend.

I set the Phases property to 3,6,9,12 after created Phases 1-12 in the settings.

And just to throw in to make things trickier, all Hero combats begin on Phase 12 before starting the next "Round", proceeding then from 1-12. Ideally, Inittool would have a setting to specify which phase is first in the combat AND which is first in the "round".

I only tested it with one combatant, but it didn't indicate any change of phases, it just jumped from Round to Round.
Legendsmiths presents:
NOVA6, streamlined universal RPG where action happens at the speed of narrative
Narosia * Sea of Tears, a complete fantasy game powered by the Hero System.

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Post by Phergus »

AFAIK, Phase support isn't fully there yet. Jay was just getting the settings and such in place.

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mudpyr8
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Post by mudpyr8 »

Cool. Just checking. Thanks.
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Narosia * Sea of Tears, a complete fantasy game powered by the Hero System.

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jay
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Post by jay »

Phergus wrote:AFAIK, Phase support isn't fully there yet. Jay was just getting the settings and such in place.
That is right. I implemented the creation of phases, but then I ran into some difficulties trying to display them. Since I needed to get some bug fixes and other functionailty out, I got to a good stopping point and released what I had. I hope to get more done with the next release.

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Post by mudpyr8 »

I just completed my HeroGMAssist spreadsheet that creates a speedchart based on a list of combatants. I have posted it at: http://www.tekhed.com/files/HeroGMAssist.xls

You can hit the "Generate" button if you want, or just look at the speed chart.

Thanks.
Legendsmiths presents:
NOVA6, streamlined universal RPG where action happens at the speed of narrative
Narosia * Sea of Tears, a complete fantasy game powered by the Hero System.

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jay
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Post by jay »

I've been working on the phase support, and I have some questions: How should the InitTool timers work? Do you need them? Should they go in their own special phase w/o any combatants or can they be assigned to any group? Should they all be at the top or the bottom of the phase that owns them? Since I don't attach custom values to the timers, sorting them in with the combatants is not really possible unless you sort by initiative. So I'm not really sure what to do.

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Post by jay »

OK, the phase support is ready. You can now create as many phases as you need named however you want. There are two special phases; one to contain creatures that are not in any other phase and one to contain all of the timers. You can set up the phases by going to the "Edit Settings" dialog where you can enable them and enter all of their names. I also added something I call the phase dispatcher that will distribute the creatures throughout the phases when you start the encounter. You select this on the edit settings dialog too. I created a dispatcher for Hero to show how it works, eventually you will be able to write a script to do that. I entered the creatures that mudpyr8 had in the spreadsheet he linked in, and it is working just like that sheet does. If you use it it expects a custom property named "SPEED" to exist and that the phases are named "Segment n" where n is a number between 1 and 12.

The only question I had is how do you tell who goes first if two creatures have the same DEX? Or more generic: How does init tool decide who goes first when two creatures have the same value for the phase sorting property? How should I fix this so that it is the most useful to everybody? Should there be a tie resolver like there is for the initiative? Should I allow sorting within the phases to be controlled by multiple properties (i.e. sort by DEX and if those are equal then sort by SPEED). Does it matter? Right now they use the initiative order to break the tie, but that is just a place holder until I get some more input.

I had to disable the "Go" button in phased mode. It is used to make a creature leave a wait state and take there turn at the current initiative, but since that would have to change the sorting custom property I thought that leaving it to work was a bad idea. I disabled the "Move Up and Move Down" functions for the same reason: they would update the custom property. I made the decision that the tool should never change custom property values indirectly like that. They have to be changed manually by the GM.

Try it out and tell me how it goes!

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Post by Phergus »

I'm really liking the Index Card View.

Quick look over of IT b10:

:!: Phase Sort Prop combo box doesn't remember/show current setting.

:!: Combatants is mispelled in Phase list.

:?: I couldn't figure out how to get PC or NPCs into named phases. I selected Manual Dispatch. Added a bunch phases named Group 1 through Group 10. Added a Custom Field called Group to each combatant and assigned them a Group value. Everyone still ended up in the "Other Combatatns" [sic] phase.

Ideally I need to be able to randomly drag people to whatever Phase I want. This movement would probably occur at the end of the round. Restoring the Move Up/Down buttons would be fine. WHen using IT for DQ combat the Phases would be a completely arbitrary assignment that might change each round so there is no concern over the controlling custom property changing.

:!: Index card view. It currently shows:

<character name> "Player" "Played by " <player name>
or
<NPC name> "Monster" "Played by GM"

"Player", given its position, kind of says that <character name> is a player played by the player. And not every foe a character fights is a "Monster".

Given that they come from the creature categories perhaps it would be better if the default categories were PC & NPC?

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Post by jay »

Phergus wrote:I'm really liking the Index Card View.
Cool! You should thank Dorpond for that idea. Did you have a problem with the grey lines under the now editable custom data fields? At first I left them as regular text boxes, but they made the display harder to read. They took up a lot more space as well.
Phergus wrote::!: Phase Sort Prop combo box doesn't remember/show current setting.
I've been looking into this and the only thing that I could create was it not showing the 'Init (default)' value. The other values seem to be working fine. I know that I had this problem while I was coding the tool, but I thought I had fixed it. Can I get some more details on what you are seeing?
Phergus wrote::!: Combatants is mispelled in Phase list.
:oops: Ummmm.... Does anybody know how to enable the spell checker in Eclipse?
Phergus wrote::?: I couldn't figure out how to get PC or NPCs into named phases. I selected Manual Dispatch. Added a bunch phases named Group 1 through Group 10. Added a Custom Field called Group to each combatant and assigned them a Group value. Everyone still ended up in the "Other Combatatns" [sic] phase.
Go ahead, rub in the spelling mistake :) Right now the only way to change the phase is to edit the combatant (by double clicking or from the menu) and then typing in the name of the group or groups in the 'Phases' field on that dialog. The field only shows up when the phases are enabled, so you might have missed it. To add a combatant to multiple groups, just type in each group name separated by a comma.

This is just my first cut at entering the phases. Init tool needs a much easier way to do this. I'm not sure what that is so I am open to suggestions.
Phergus wrote:Ideally I need to be able to randomly drag people to whatever Phase I want. This movement would probably occur at the end of the round.
I agree that we need to be able to drag. Java 6 has fixed the dragging support, so I'm trying to stay away from that code until we switch. Hopefully that will happen in the next couple of months. Drag and drop support in Java 5 should be able to do this, but it would have to be written from scratch. I'll take a look and see how long that might take me to do.
Phergus wrote:Restoring the Move Up/Down buttons would be fine. WHen using IT for DQ combat the Phases would be a completely arbitrary assignment that might change each round so there is no concern over the controlling custom property changing.
Doesn't DQ sort the combatants within the phase by some value or set of values (Something like: Agility + Perception + their Rank with prepared weapon + Warrior bonus. If I have the wrong rule set I apologize)? If it does, then moving up and moving down will cause you to change that value. That seemed bad. And if the value is calculated, it would mess that up too.
Phergus wrote::!: Index card view. It currently shows:

<character name> "Player" "Played by " <player name>
or
<NPC name> "Monster" "Played by GM"

"Player", given its position, kind of says that <character name> is a player played by the player. And not every foe a character fights is a "Monster".

Given that they come from the creature categories perhaps it would be better if the default categories were PC & NPC?

I'm not attached to the names, and they are easy to change. What does everybody else think?

I'd like to update all of the terminology for the tool. Get a set that we can agree on. I'd also like to separate the settings a little better so that we can create game specific settings files. Then we could define what is needed for each game and worry about what the default types are and what they look like, save it to the file, and post it for the community to use.

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Post by Phergus »

jay wrote:
Phergus wrote:I'm really liking the Index Card View.
Cool! You should thank Dorpond for that idea. Did you have a problem with the grey lines under the now editable custom data fields? At first I left them as regular text boxes, but they made the display harder to read. They took up a lot more space as well.
The grey lines are a bit on the long side but they are subtle enough enough that it doesn't really bother me. Having them editable is a big plus.
jay wrote:
Phergus wrote::!: Phase Sort Prop combo box doesn't remember/show current setting.
I've been looking into this and the only thing that I could create was it not showing the 'Init (default)' value.
That's the problem I was seeing.
jay wrote:
Phergus wrote::?: I couldn't figure out how to get PC or NPCs into named phases...
Right now the only way to change the phase is to edit the combatant (by double clicking or from the menu) and then typing in the name of the group or groups in the 'Phases' field on that dialog. The field only shows up when the phases are enabled, so you might have missed it...
Yeah I missed it.
jay wrote:This is just my first cut at entering the phases. Init tool needs a much easier way to do this. I'm not sure what that is so I am open to suggestions.
I would think that that would work fairly well for Hero system games. The phases a character goes in doesn't change very often.

For DQ the phase (aka combat group) a character is in will change during the course of a combat and so whatever system will need to quick and easy.
jay wrote:
Phergus wrote:Restoring the Move Up/Down buttons would be fine. WHen using IT for DQ combat the Phases would be a completely arbitrary assignment that might change each round so there is no concern over the controlling custom property changing.
Doesn't DQ sort the combatants within the phase by some value or set of values (Something like: Agility + Perception + their Rank with prepared weapon + Warrior bonus. If I have the wrong rule set I apologize)? If it does, then moving up and moving down will cause you to change that value. That seemed bad. And if the value is calculated, it would mess that up too.
That's correct. All the charcters within the same phase go by their calculated Initiative Value which is very much like you said. Modified Agility + Perception + Rank/Weapon.

I was actually looking to use the arrow keys to move them between groups/phases and this would not affect their IV. Maybe Ctrl-Up/Down could move a character between phases?
jay wrote:I'd like to update all of the terminology for the tool. Get a set that we can agree on. I'd also like to separate the settings a little better so that we can create game specific settings files. Then we could define what is needed for each game and worry about what the default types are and what they look like, save it to the file, and post it for the community to use.
That sounds like a good direction to go.

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