HERO Support in Init Tool

[mudpyr8]

Great Tool - very clean and easy to use. My question is about generalizing the tool to support other systems.

Here is the Hero initiative mechanic:

All combatants go in order of DEX.
The standard unit of combat is a TURN which is 12 segments long (1 seg =1 1 sec).
Combatants get a number of actions equal to their SPEED.
Combatants take their actions evenly distributed throughout the turn according to the SPEED CHART.
The segment in which the combatant takes his action is called a PHASE.
Combat always begins on TURN 0, SEGMENT 12.
Combatants can HOLD their action until their next PHASE if they choose.
Combatants can ABORT to their next action to do something defensive (e.g. Dodge, Block, Dive for Cover).

So, for example, a SPEED 4 character can take action on segments 3,6,9,12.

What I would like the tool to be able to do:
Setting the system to manual and entering DEX as the Initiative value works fine. No changes there.

1. What is needed is the concept of SPEED and whether or not for a given "Round" (to use the features already there) whether or not that character can go. This could be a simple as entering in, comma delim, the phases for the character or having the system know that a SPD 4 character goes on 3,6,9,12 automatically.

2. The ability to have a character "Delay" is basically the same as a hold. "Ready" could work for holding a Half action, but we need a 4th (other than Disabled) for Abort.

3. Remove wait state should have a key option for fast play.

4. "Go" is great, but for Hero the person's Init doesn't change. Removing the wait state would be sufficient.

5. Tracking the number of turns - when the Round count = 12 and goes back to 1 the Turn count is incremented.

I can see a lot of this could be accomplished just by allowing some preferences to be set. Introducing the concept of Turns works for d20 as well: 10 rounds = 1 turn, correct? If nothing else, 10 rounds = 1 minute so being able to specify some larger unit of time isn't without merit for most systems.

I think that would get it started. If there is anything I can do to help, let me know. Here is a text list of the speed chart - for a given segment (round) it lists which SPEEDS are allowed to act:

Code: Select all

segment 1
12

segment 2
6-12

segment 3
4-5,8-12

segment 4
3,6-7,9-12

segment 5
5,8,10-12

segment 6
2,4,6-12

segment 7
1,7,9,11-12

segment 8
3,5-6,8-12

segment 9
4,7-8,10-12

segment 10
5-6,9-12

segment 11
7-12

segment 12
2-12

Thank you for your consideration.

[Phergus]

Great analysis and suggestions. I would like to see it support the Hero system as well.

If Jay can get Hero system working in InitTool then there is some hope for getting DQ support.

[RPTroll]

Here' s a few troll thoughts:

There are other systems like Star Fleet Battles that use phased movement so it spaces the movement/actions throughout the turn.

One approach is to have multiple entries in intit tool order for a single entity that share the same custom values.

Another approach is to enable phases and allow init tool to track what phase things move/act in and dynamically order then entries as you work your way down the initiative order. In this case entries would 'jump' down in the init order after their current action phase completed.

[mudpyr8]

Right, the jump down is okay but it is important to still be able to select the jumped over combatants - at least in Hero they could always abort so I need to be able to set that wait state.

[jay]

I've been thinking about this for a couple of days, but I'm not sure how I implement it so that it works with everything else. Phergus and I had talked about adding groups, but we had not talked about allowing the same unit to be in more than one group. That implementation was going to require Phergus to do all of his init support by hand, since it wasn't really possible to group things without their positions relative to each other.

I'm going to have to set up some kind of mode for each type of init system. Eventually I could make it extendable so that we can add new systems as needed. What kind of requirements do you think we need? We have talked about grouping the items. I think that this would suffice for the phases mentioned here. This system also requires that the same item needs to be in the list more than once. You want ordering within w/i the groups. You want to be able to add your own groups dynamically (Phergu's DQ support). Anything else that anybody can think of?

[Phergus]

In the most basic of descriptions:

• In Heroes we have groups of characters acting on fixed phases. Within those phase groups characters act in Dexterity order. There will likely be some phase groups without characters acting.
• In DQ we have groups of characters in an arbitrary number of melee groups with a minimum of two groups (unengaged players and unengaged monsters). Within those groups they act in Initiative Value (IV) order.

There is a pretty good alignment in the basic functionality. A little less so once you start accounting for all the held actions and such.

I could easily map DQ combat onto a phase system that allowed for phases to have no combatants. It would be pretty unlikely for there to be more than 11 players involved in more than 11 seperate melee groups. Of course given the ability to assign an arbitrary number of phases even that unlikely scenario could be handled.

• For Heroes the combatants would need to be assigned to the different Phases based on their Speed attribute.
• For DQ the assignment to Phases would be arbitrary and would also change during the course of the combat.

If the action order within a phase group could be determined based upon a user-defined property this would take it very close to complete.

[jay]

I could easily map DQ combat onto a phase system that allowed for phases to have no combatants.

I was thinking that I'd do it the other way around. I would add generic groupings to the tool first. Any number of groups could be supported. Each group could contain any number of items. A single item can be placed into many groups. Would we need to support a single item in a single group multiple times? That could get messy. Then I would allow for sorting w/i the groups by initiative roll. Would I need to support sorting by any property (custom or otherwise)? Would I need to support a different sorting for each group?

That takes care of everything but placement of items w/i groups. I can't think of a generic way of automatically adding items to a group that would work for a large number of games. So, I'll just add a field for each item that allows you to set their groups. I think mudpyr8 suggested a comma delimited field, that seems good to me. I'll add it to the item DD that is to be created some day as well.

Does that sound like it will work for everybody?

[Phergus]

I could easily map DQ combat onto a phase system that allowed for phases to have no combatants.

I was thinking that I'd do it the other way around.

Not going to get any complaints from me on that.

I would add generic groupings to the tool first. Any number of groups could be supported. Each group could contain any number of items. A single item can be placed into many groups.

Sounds good.

Would we need to support a single item in a single group multiple times? That could get messy.

There are ways in DQ, and I imagine other systems, where a character can get two actions in one phase/group/turn. I don't think it is absolutely necessary to support this in the interface however.

Then I would allow for sorting w/i the groups by initiative roll. Would I need to support sorting by any property (custom or otherwise)?

As I can manually set the Iniative for each item in a group, sorting by Initiative works fine for me for the melee groups. For Heroes where action occurs in Dex order, those users may want to have a Custom Property called Dex and sort by that.

Would I need to support a different sorting for each group?

To accurately reflect DQ combat the last two groups would be Unengaged PCs and Unengaged Foes. These two groups go in Agility order within the groups. Not really concerned about this one.

That takes care of everything but placement of items w/i groups. I can't think of a generic way of automatically adding items to a group that would work for a large number of games. So, I'll just add a field for each item that allows you to set their groups. I think mudpyr8 suggested a comma delimited field, that seems good to me.

Sounds good.

Need to think about how the setup at the beginning of a combat would be handled and how changes to groups during combat could be handled.

For setup I would need a way to either select multiple combatants and add them to a single group. Or quickly assign a group to each combatant. As almost all DQ combats will start with both sides Unengaged, if I could easily put all Player combatants in one group and the Foes in another that would do it.

During the course of combat, some combatants will become "Unengaged" and need to be added to that group if it exists or I will need to create a new group with that combatant.

Then there is the converse. An Unengaged combatant will enter Melee combat in an existing group or a new one.

I'm thinking something like right-clicking on an item in the list and getting a contextual menu to place it in one of the existing groups that would be listed or the option of creating a new group.

[mudpyr8]

Jay - I think that sounds pretty good. Let me see if I understand it from a Hero PoV.

The tool will allow multiple groups of which a character can be a member of more than one. The tool will cycle through the groups and sort by X within a group (X being defined for Hero as DEX or manual inititive value). Once it has cycled through all of the groups, the Turn is over and the cycle begins anew.

I think the only tricky part for Hero then is that combat begins on segment 12, not segment 1, of the first turn. The turn is immediately ended, and a new turn then begins on segment 1. I know it's crazy, but that's how it is (the idea is to ensure that the first action of a combat will see all characters getting to act once).

I'm not sure how the tool can be detailed to do that programatically. The sort order of the groups (Phases for Hero) will be from 1 to 12 in numerical order, 12 being the last phase of a turn. It's easy to see the tool will want to, logically, start on segment 1. Perhaps in Preferences you can define the order (as a comma delimited list or something) AND set the combat start group (this might also help DQ - I don't think you'd want to start with unengaged combatants).

Does that make sense?

[Phergus]

Perhaps in Preferences you can define the order (as a comma delimited list or something) AND set the combat start group (this might also help DQ - I don't think you'd want to start with unengaged combatants).

I think that would work.

For Hero, define the groups as 1 thru 12 with a Melee starting with group 12 for the first round and then proceeding to the next round where groups are stepped through in order.

For DQ, I could define whatever groups I might want (1 thru 6 or 10 or 12...), and then set the first round, first group as 1. As you guessed Mudpyr8, DQ doesn't start a combat round with the unengaged unless there are only unengaged.

[mudpyr8]

Right on, Phergus.

All your hex are belong to us!

[Phergus]

What you say!!

[jay]

I've added a tracker for this.

[kharney]

Any idea on when you might begin work on HERO support?

Thanks

[jay]

I am wanting to start on the group support for HERO and DQ after I finished with attaching multiple timers (think conditions) to the combatants. I have almost finished this, I just need to figure out how to display the multiple timers in the list and table views of the encounter.