InitTool Usability Poll

Discussion of initiative tool.

Moderators: dorpond, Azhrei

How do you feel about InitTool's interface and usability?

I think it is very confusing.
5
33%
I think it is a little confusing.
4
27%
I am somewhere in the middle (please explain).
0
No votes
I think it is kind of easy.
5
33%
I think it is really easy.
1
7%
 
Total votes: 15

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jay
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Post by jay »

dorpond wrote:But yeah, this is where I get confused the most. Like in a directory, things I create and cause are owned by me thus they belong in my sub-directory. Know what I mean?
Yeah, I know what you mean. It just doesn't seem right from a game point of view. One problem with placing the item under the current player, is that makes it look like it goes next. When you click on next, that would be the next item in the list. Are there any games that work this way?

The other problem that I can see with placing it after the caster is that you won't calculate things like damage for a Melf's acid arrow until after the turn of the player who cast it. If it just so happenend that the next round of damage was going to kill the creature, the player (not necessarily the GM :-)) would want to know that before taking their turn. So I'm just not sure if that is going to make things easier. The encounter isn't a directory structure, it's a list of the items in turn order. I think deviating from that will just make it more difficult to figure out what happens next.

Having said that, it isn't a big deal code-wise to place the timers at the same initiative and after the current player. If I add it, there would need to be setting that controlled whether a timer shows up above or below. Is it worth doing now? Or should I wait until everybody see's the tool with the index card view?

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Post by Phergus »

My vote is to wait on the index card view. An idea which I am vary much in favor of.

Warderbrad
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Post by Warderbrad »

for me the reasons I get confused is the set up process. It is very cumbersome to add people and monsters to an encounter. I also have a problem with the fact that if I use a Orc in one encounter there is not a way for me to save the info on the Orc for later use without saving him as his own group.

Also with the adding of new combatants, it is possible to add a number of combatants but not their player names or other info in the same manner. so I have a list of players and monsters but the players don't have a player name and I have to double click them to add that and other info. There was a comment once about making the "Add Combatant" a table, this I feel would be a very good option.

Also the tool does not remember the placement on the screen or the size/shape you had it in last. When I run my online game I have to fit the mapper, a chat client (we use a common chat server not the in mapper one) and the init tool. Fortunately I have two monitors and so I have the mapper on one screen with the init tool above the chat. It is just a point of frustration that everything else is easy to set up except for this.

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Post by dorpond »

jay wrote: Is it worth doing now? Or should I wait until everybody see's the tool with the index card view?
I say try the index card view and see what happens first. That is a great place to start then we can see what happens when we try it out.

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Post by dorpond »

Another confusing element for me:

The wording used for many functions. For example, on the main screen on the bottom of the page there are ready icons and such.

"Exit the current wait state and go now"
"Remove the wait state"
"toggle delay wait state"
"toggle disabled wait state"
"toggle ready wait state"

I have no idea what I should do and in what order. I know all about readies and delays and their function in 3.5 D&D but I couldn't tell you what button I should push or what their function is. Can't we just make it simple?:

Ready an Action
Delay an Action
Take your Action

dorpond
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Post by dorpond »

Hey Jay,

As far as the function in InitTool, what is the difference between the ready and the delay? Within InitTool, they seem to act exactly the same.

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Post by dorpond »

I added an encounter to InitTool to test, added a counter to my monster and it crashed. I can reproduce this every time.

If you want, I can send you the encounter Jay.

here is the Java dump:
TinyLaF v1.3.03
'Default.theme' not found - using YQ default theme.
Exception in thread "AWT-EventQueue-0" java.lang.NullPointerException
at net.rptools.inittool.ui.ItemTableCellRenderer.getTableCellRendererComponent(ItemTableCellRenderer.java:213)
at javax.swing.JTable.prepareRenderer(Unknown Source)
at javax.swing.plaf.basic.BasicTableUI.paintCell(Unknown Source)
at javax.swing.plaf.basic.BasicTableUI.paintCells(Unknown Source)
at javax.swing.plaf.basic.BasicTableUI.paint(Unknown Source)
at javax.swing.plaf.ComponentUI.update(Unknown Source)
at javax.swing.JComponent.paintComponent(Unknown Source)
at javax.swing.JComponent.paint(Unknown Source)
at javax.swing.JComponent.paintChildren(Unknown Source)
at javax.swing.JComponent.paint(Unknown Source)
at javax.swing.JViewport.paint(Unknown Source)
at javax.swing.JComponent.paintChildren(Unknown Source)
at javax.swing.JComponent.paint(Unknown Source)
at javax.swing.JComponent.paintWithOffscreenBuffer(Unknown Source)
at javax.swing.JComponent.paintDoubleBuffered(Unknown Source)
at javax.swing.JComponent._paintImmediately(Unknown Source)
at javax.swing.JComponent.paintImmediately(Unknown Source)
at javax.swing.RepaintManager.paintDirtyRegions(Unknown Source)
at javax.swing.SystemEventQueueUtilities$ComponentWorkRequest.run(Unknown Source)
at java.awt.event.InvocationEvent.dispatch(Unknown Source)
at java.awt.EventQueue.dispatchEvent(Unknown Source)
at java.awt.EventDispatchThread.pumpOneEventForHierarchy(Unknown Source)
at java.awt.EventDispatchThread.pumpEventsForHierarchy(Unknown Source)
at java.awt.EventDispatchThread.pumpEvents(Unknown Source)
at java.awt.EventDispatchThread.pumpEvents(Unknown Source)
at java.awt.EventDispatchThread.run(Unknown Source)
Exception in thread "AWT-EventQueue-0" java.lang.NullPointerException
at net.rptools.inittool.ui.ItemTableCellRenderer.getTableCellRendererComponent(ItemTableCellRenderer.java:213)
at javax.swing.JTable.prepareRenderer(Unknown Source)
at javax.swing.plaf.basic.BasicTableUI.paintCell(Unknown Source)
at javax.swing.plaf.basic.BasicTableUI.paintCells(Unknown Source)
at javax.swing.plaf.basic.BasicTableUI.paint(Unknown Source)
at javax.swing.plaf.ComponentUI.update(Unknown Source)
at javax.swing.JComponent.paintComponent(Unknown Source)
at javax.swing.JComponent.paint(Unknown Source)
at javax.swing.JComponent.paintChildren(Unknown Source)
at javax.swing.JComponent.paint(Unknown Source)
at javax.swing.JViewport.paint(Unknown Source)
at javax.swing.JComponent.paintChildren(Unknown Source)
at javax.swing.JComponent.paint(Unknown Source)
at javax.swing.JComponent.paintChildren(Unknown Source)
at javax.swing.JComponent.paint(Unknown Source)
at javax.swing.JComponent.paintChildren(Unknown Source)
at javax.swing.JComponent.paint(Unknown Source)
at javax.swing.JComponent.paintChildren(Unknown Source)
at javax.swing.JComponent.paint(Unknown Source)
at javax.swing.JLayeredPane.paint(Unknown Source)
at javax.swing.JComponent.paintChildren(Unknown Source)
at javax.swing.JComponent.paintWithOffscreenBuffer(Unknown Source)
at javax.swing.JComponent.paintDoubleBuffered(Unknown Source)
at javax.swing.JComponent.paint(Unknown Source)
at java.awt.GraphicsCallback$PaintCallback.run(Unknown Source)
at sun.awt.SunGraphicsCallback.runOneComponent(Unknown Source)
at sun.awt.SunGraphicsCallback.runComponents(Unknown Source)
at java.awt.Container.paint(Unknown Source)
at sun.awt.RepaintArea.paintComponent(Unknown Source)
at sun.awt.RepaintArea.paint(Unknown Source)
at sun.awt.windows.WComponentPeer.handleEvent(Unknown Source)
at java.awt.Component.dispatchEventImpl(Unknown Source)
at java.awt.Container.dispatchEventImpl(Unknown Source)
at java.awt.Window.dispatchEventImpl(Unknown Source)
at java.awt.Component.dispatchEvent(Unknown Source)
at java.awt.EventQueue.dispatchEvent(Unknown Source)
at java.awt.EventDispatchThread.pumpOneEventForHierarchy(Unknown Source)
at java.awt.EventDispatchThread.pumpEventsForHierarchy(Unknown Source)
at java.awt.EventDispatchThread.pumpEvents(Unknown Source)
at java.awt.EventDispatchThread.pumpEvents(Unknown Source)
at java.awt.EventDispatchThread.run(Unknown Source)

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jay
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Post by jay »

Warderbrad wrote:for me the reasons I get confused is the set up process. It is very cumbersome to add people and monsters to an encounter. I also have a problem with the fact that if I use a Orc in one encounter there is not a way for me to save the info on the Orc for later use without saving him as his own group.
I'm not clear on what you are asking for here. Where do you think it should go if it doesn't go in a group? Are you wanting to save a single monster in a file? That is not difficult to do, but it does require you to keep track of another type of file. Or do you have something else in mind?
Warderbrad wrote:Also with the adding of new combatants, it is possible to add a number of combatants but not their player names or other info in the same manner. so I have a list of players and monsters but the players don't have a player name and I have to double click them to add that and other info. There was a comment once about making the "Add Combatant" a table, this I feel would be a very good option.
It is clear from the comments that I am getting that I need to redo the add combatants screen. The HTML table edit suggested by SR above seems like a good idea, but I'm a little worried about how java handles keystrokes within its tables. For some reason the cursor disappears when using the keyboard to traverse between editable cells. However, I should be able to 'fake' a table and get the HTML table edit feel that was requested above. I'm not sure if this will make adding combatants easier, but we can try it out and see how everybody likes it. I will open a tracker.
Warderbrad wrote:Also the tool does not remember the placement on the screen or the size/shape you had it in last. When I run my online game I have to fit the mapper, a chat client (we use a common chat server not the in mapper one) and the init tool. Fortunately I have two monitors and so I have the mapper on one screen with the init tool above the chat. It is just a point of frustration that everything else is easy to set up except for this.
I'll add a tracker for that as well.

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jay
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Post by jay »

dorpond wrote:Another confusing element for me:

The wording used for many functions. For example, on the main screen on the bottom of the page there are ready icons and such.
...
I have no idea what I should do and in what order. I know all about readies and delays and their function in 3.5 D&D but I couldn't tell you what button I should push or what their function is. Can't we just make it simple?
In init tool there is no difference between any of the wait states. They are used exclusively to skip over a combatant until some later time. Leaving the wait state (regardless of the wait states name) always places the combatant just above and at the same initiative of the current combatant. A combatant can only have one wait state on it at a time, setting another state just replaces the existing one.

The terms 'ready' and 'delay' are D&D specific, which in general is a 'Bad Thing'. So a GM can name all of the wait states needed for the game they are running. The default ones are defined to be those used in D&D. In the original requirements for init tool, I was asked to add a 'dead' condition as well (now called disabled). Since all you do in the dead condition is skip the player, it is also implemented as a wait state. So for maximum flexibility, I allow as many wait states as needed by the GM.

So in its simplest form a wait state is just a flag placed on a combatant. The flag means skip this combatant and go to the next when it is set. The GM gets to name the flag and give it an icon. Toggling the wait state on and off does not change the initiative of the combatant. But often you will want a waiting combatant to go now. I call that ‘Exiting the wait state’. I'm not attached to any of the terms used, and I will happily change them if we can find a better set of names that fits with the functionality.

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jay
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Post by jay »

dorpond wrote:As far as the function in InitTool, what is the difference between the ready and the delay? Within InitTool, they seem to act exactly the same.
That is correct, all wait states are exactly the same. The name of the wait state is just a GM defined piece of info specific to a particular game. To Init Tool the D&D terms 'ready' and 'delay' (and 'disabled' for that matter) mean skip the player for now, he may want to go later.

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Post by jay »

dorpond wrote:I added an encounter to InitTool to test, added a counter to my monster and it crashed. I can reproduce this every time.

If you want, I can send you the encounter Jay.
Yes please, I would like the encounter file. I think I have already fixed this bug, but I'd like to make sure.

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Post by dorpond »

Another thing that is not intuitive is when I click on the Timer button and I see that list of characters. There is no box I can check to state who I am assign the timer too.

When I click on a character on the list, it appears to the user that you can only assign the timer to one on the list.

Now, I kinda figured that I would have to use the control key to select multiple characters but that is not intuitive to a first time user.

Perhaps you should put a check box on each user in that list for the user to check who they want?

Also, shouldn't the owner field automatically fill in with the person we are currently on? Yeah, it is nice to change it but for the most part, if I am on Dorpond right now and I want to add a new Spell Timer, Dorpond is probably the owner. Don't you think?

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Post by Warderbrad »

jay wrote:
Warderbrad wrote:for me the reasons I get confused is the set up process. It is very cumbersome to add people and monsters to an encounter. I also have a problem with the fact that if I use a Orc in one encounter there is not a way for me to save the info on the Orc for later use without saving him as his own group.
I'm not clear on what you are asking for here. Where do you think it should go if it doesn't go in a group? Are you wanting to save a single monster in a file? That is not difficult to do, but it does require you to keep track of another type of file. Or do you have something else in mind?
I was thinking of something like a library file, a single file where a user could enter monsters and other common NPCs for fast set up. When you tell it to add a combatant you could click another button on the next screen and have it pull up the library list and you click the one you want to add, once it is added you can edit it for customization purposes.

Heck if something like this was done, at least for d20 the monsters in the SRD would be allowed to be commonly available.

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Post by Big_Mac »

The plus of doing something like that would be that when MT and IT are integrated this could then be hooked to the tokens of MT.
--
Big Mac

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Post by jay »

dorpond wrote:Another thing that is not intuitive is when I click on the Timer button and I see that list of characters. There is no box I can check to state who I am assign the timer too.
I've added a tracker for this.
dorpond wrote:Also, shouldn't the owner field automatically fill in with the person we are currently on? Yeah, it is nice to change it but for the most part, if I am on Dorpond right now and I want to add a new Spell Timer, Dorpond is probably the owner. Don't you think?
Yes it should, I've added a tracker for this as well.

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