Thoughts on the 12B4 version

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fdwojo
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Thoughts on the 12B4 version

Post by fdwojo »

In MapTool 1.2B4, the VISION tool seems to cause a great deal of slow-down on the displaying computer system (host AND clients). I'm not sure how 'normal' my gaming group is compared to others on this board, so ...

My group is currently playing in WLD (Worlds Largest Dungeon) and to get good detail, I've scanned in all the maps at 300 dpi so that after combining each region, each image file is about 30-35 MB in size (JPG, best quality, least compression). Then, after minor resizing to help the MapTool GRID function to line up right, and compressing the image down to a GIF, the final region-map is about 12 MB in size. Now, at this resolution, each 5' square is 35 pixels across and down and the play area of the map is about 165 by 135 squares each 5' in size. I have provided this information in case the difficulty I am about to describe is because of a 'too large' map size. On the other hand, I do realize that Dorpond (I think) has said that the whole idea of MapTool is to be able to handle a boundless (endless) map of any size if need be.

Some background information first:
In our gaming group, the DM, Player 1, and Player 2 are on a LAN in the same room and PLayer 3 and Player 4 are in another house elsewhere in another state. All are using hi-speed cable to connect to the internet. The first two players mentioned above are using the LAN tab to connect in MapTool and additionally the DM and Player 1 both have 2 GB of RAM and their PC's are running Pentium 4 Dual Core 3.2 Ghz processors. The other players have between from 512 MB to 1024 MB of RAM and they also kept their systems pretty clean (for purposes of this test).

Okay. So here is the major problem:
If you turn 'Vision' on for a character, it really seems to sap the CPU usage. For a real taste of slowness, give a character 150' or more for their 'Vision' range. We found that things came to a crawl for each of us logged in to MapTool. Two of us, the DM and Player 1 do not have much else running other than Ventrilo and a notepad app for taking notes. By the way, we are all using ROUND vision.

Despite that, turning on 'Vision' would cause typically about a one minute delay between the dragging of the mouse to move a pog and seeing the pog appear in the new location. The same delay would happen when you would attempt to right-click to bring up a menu. At one point in the test, we had the DM (Host) turn on 160' Vision for a Medium (5') pog and all the linked computers ground to a halt. CPU usage on some went as high as 90% for the JAVAW.exe app for some players. I'm assuming that MapTool is constantly (second by second?) updating the visible Vision circle for each pog. Can this be cut back? Maybe a user-definable update interval, or perhaps only update the visible Vision circle after you stop moving the map or after you stop (and let go of) an icon?

A few (minor) problems:
  1. When using the Vision system, all the pogs should be on top of (in front of) the lit circle. If they are behind it (as it currently is), the icons are too washed out and hard to see clearly. Please make the light appear behind the pogs.
  2. I realize that the Vision system is totally brand new. Still, is any consideration being given to the idea of having different characters Vision 'circle' being different colors like the Light function currently does? Though this may sound strange, it could actually come in handy both for determining which character can see what when partly overlapping, and also for those times for creatures that create darkness. A monster-created black vision circle could almost act like Fog of War, so to speak. In this case, it is conceivable that a character might create an area of light to counteract this. You would then need to either solve that situation by turning off the dark and light Vision circles, or a better solution would be to give different priorities to different Vision circles depending on which one overrode the other. If the light was more powerful then the darkness, the overlap sections would be visible to the players with no hint of the darkness in those areas. If the darkness was more powerful, the light would not be visible at all in those overlap areas. It would be as if the light didn't even exist.
  3. The chat window doesn't quite display correctly. When someone types in a comment (or runs a macro), the text doesn't always scroll into view in the chat window. If you type in a two-line comment, the first line might be visible, but the second line will be still down below the chat window viewable area and you have to scroll down to see it.
  4. What happened to the line width tool? Is the intent that players and the DM won't need to draw on the map much anymore? The current line is just too fat for many things. Will that line width selector (in some guise) be added back in the future?
  5. It used to be that CTRL-P would hide/unhide the panels on the left side of the screen. It doesn't seem to work anymore. Clicking on the menu item does nothing. Thank goodness for the Help -> Restore choices for those times when you X a window closed and you want to bring it back again. On a slightly related note, the CTRL-ENTER no longer toggles the Chat window. I found that very useful for seeing a full map entry and the additional Chat and Macro area. If it weren't for the drawback of losing the toolbar at the top, I suppose I'll have to start getting used to Alt-Enter instead. :wink:
  6. This may or may not be addressable but it seems like MapTool takes up a lot of bandwidth, too. With the players listed above, we had an opportunity to take a dinner break. During that time, one of the players on the internal LAN decided to exit out of MapTool and hop in to Worlds of Warcraft to do a bit of gaming and he noticed his latency went up a whole lot. Typically his latency is about 200 ms but it climbed up to 2500 ms for much of his session. After about a half-hour of the latency problem, we actually shut down MapTool on the DM's machine and his latency (after a minute or two) dropped down to about 220-230. This begs the question: When MapTool is just sitting there and no one is doing anything with it (no moving maps or moving pogs), is it still communicating on the 'net? If so, why? Can some more efficient communication method be used to not use up so much bandwidth?
Requests:
As I understand it, there has been some talk previously about what the F.O.W. layer should look like. I definitely think being able to have a textured layer instead of plain black would look a lot better and immerse the players in the game more fully. Ideally, the F.O.W. would be a layer in and of itself and the DM would make it match up with the players view layer but without rooms, corridors, or any other identifying features. For example, if the map is of an underground area, the spaces between rooms and other rooms might have a rocky look to them. That rocky-look-texture would then become the entirety of the F.O.W. layer. Then, during the course of the game, the players would see only the rocky-look if they hadn't explored the area, and as they mapped it out they would then see the corridors, rooms, etc. If the map was of an outdoor area, the F.O.W. layer might be just rolling grassland with no trees, dwellings, tunnel/cave-openings, etc.

Richly deserved praise:

The idea (and hopefully, more efficient implementation) of the VISION feature is great! It greatly reduces the DM's effort at 'unfogging' things during gameplay since players can, in effect, un-fog the map themselves as they walk around the adventure. (Admittedly it DOES require more before-game work to properly set up the Topology layer correctly.) And the "Expose last Path menu option" that was talked about in the Topology/Vision Problem thread is going to make things even easier than that.

Plus, the new MACROS window works much better. There were never enough macro buttons before, and allowing only one row of them was too constricting. Now my request would be for a way to add MORE macro buttons.

All in all, MapTool is coming along wonderfully and I eagerly look forward to each new iteration of the program.

Thanks, guys!

FDWojo
Last edited by fdwojo on Sun Jan 21, 2007 1:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by dorpond »

There is a lot of goor information here fdwojo. Thanks! I am sure Trevor will touch on each of these.

I can tell you this however - the map that you described above in a large map. It is 4725 X 5775 pixels. I know for a fact you are going to have memory issues with the default 256M default Maptool setting.

Did you increase the memory in Maptool by chance? YOu can do that if you download the zipped version of Maptool. Unzip it and edit the batch file. You will see 256 in the batch file - change that to 512 and see if that works better. You will want to do that on all the players also.

Trevor is aware that the Light Blocking Layer (or vision if you want to be accurate) is causing all kinds of CPU overhead. Are you using that feature by chance? If you have a map that large and you are using that, I know exactly how you feel. The good news is that Trevor made the LBL work better so expect improvements in 1.2B5.

As far as the rest of the things oyu commented on, I will let Trevor address them.

Thanks for your input!

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Thoughts on the 12B4 version

Post by fdwojo »

Thanks for the quick reply, Dorpond.

Yes, you are correct about the pixel size for the map. My DM will be posting a detailed reply shortly but I wanted to say that I have updated my .BAT file and I am set for 1024 instead of the 256 default. I totally prefer and only use the downloaded version of MapTool and I don't use the online "Use MapTool from the Web" link at all.

FDWojo

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trevor
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Post by trevor »

Fortunately I put in a massive optimization in yesterday morning and will be in the next build. I'm waiting for a patch from a contributor then I'll do a build.

I'm parsing through the rest of your post and will respond shortly
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Post by Dracorat »

Yeah, I am the DM he is talking about. I run the DM client. =)

Here is the bat file I use to launch MapTool:
start javaw -Xmx1024M -jar maptool-*.jar

Additionally, here is the campaign file (enjoy!):
http://keithratliff.com/transfer/wld%20e.cmpgn

Let me start by saying we were just WOWed by the new MapTool in my group. We spent probably a half hour just drooling before we even got in to playing.

And the addition of Vision and Fog of War. Props. Just props!

The largest issue from what I can tell is this: It appears that when vision is turned on, the LoS for vision is calculated at every frame.

The solution as I can see it:

Threefold:
First, thread vision calculation to a worker thread. When it calculates, display the result.

Second, allow the worker thread to remain idle after you calculate the vision the first time.

Third, when panning the map or dragging icons, if those would require a recalculation of vision, just don't. Allow it to pan etc and then when the user lets go, resume calculation.

But, really, I don't want you to be clouded by the feedback. We are still amazed at what you accomplished. OMG. =)

A suggestion if I am allowed. In the topology, allow another tool to create doors. When the player wants to open a door, let me have a tool I can use with the regular arrow tool that if I point at a door that I topology-defined as a door, that would highlight so I could right-click->Eliminate Topology Block or something like that. Doing so would effectively remove the section out of the topology layer as though I had erased it.

Thanks for everything. Wonderful wonderful strides forward!

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Post by trevor »

Thanks for the feedback draco. Actually the primary optimization is to only calculate for points that are within your vision range. I put that in the other day and will be in 1.2b5. The other plan is to cache the calculation until the lbl or location of the token changes.
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Re: Thoughts on the 12B4 version

Post by trevor »

fdwojo wrote: If you turn 'Vision' on for a character, it really seems to sap the CPU usage.
Watch over the next two dev builds as I work on optimizing the vision features :)
fdwojo wrote:
  1. When using the Vision system, all the pogs should be on top of (in front of) the lit circle.
Done. Note: The white areas have gone away on maps with fog, instead the white area is rendered as "normal" map shading while visited but non-visible areas are slightly shaded. We'll continue to tweak this behavior over the next several releases.
fdwojo wrote: [*]is any consideration being given to the idea of having different characters Vision 'circle' being different colors like the Light function currently does?
Absolutely. In fact, the vision feature will soon replace the light feature. You'll even be able to pick a texture if you want.
fdwojo wrote: [*]The chat window doesn't quite display correctly.
The chat rendering is brand new with the 1.2b4. This is definitely a bug that I'm investigating, thanks for noting that I'm not the only one experiencing this problem
fdwojo wrote: [*]What happened to the line width tool?
It was inadvertantly removed when the toolbar structure changed. I will be adding it back in as a property on the paint chooser panel.
fdwojo wrote: [*]It used to be that CTRL-P would hide/unhide the panels on the left side of the screen. It doesn't seem to work anymore.
The CTRL-P handled the visibility of the left panel, which went away with 1.2. We now use a docking framework. I need to put in a new "Window" menu that lets you toggle the individual panels
fdwojo wrote: [*]This may or may not be addressable but it seems like MapTool takes up a lot of bandwidth, too. <snip> This begs the question: When MapTool is just sitting there and no one is doing anything with it (no moving maps or moving pogs), is it still communicating on the 'net?
When sitting idle, no communication should be happening. Soon I'll put in a "heartbeat" every couple seconds to make sure you are still connected, but it'll be a single packet and you'd never notice it. Not sure why the WoW connectivity went south. You can tell if you are sending/receiving data by looking at the two dots in the bottom right of the status bar (bottom part of the window). A red dot means incoming data. A green dot means outgoing data.
fdwojo wrote: Requests:
I definitely think being able to have a textured layer instead of plain black would look a lot better and immerse the players in the game more fully.
Agreed, and luckily 1.2b4 restructured a lot of the underlying code that is necessary to make this happen. In fact the only thing keeping the fow from being any color/texture is needing a UI mechanism for GMs to set it. Look for this feature Real Soon

Thanks for the great feedback fdwojo, it sounds like your requests match our short term development efforts :) Keep sending in those play experiences !
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Re: Thoughts on the 12B4 version

Post by Phergus »

trevor wrote:Done. Note: The white areas have gone away on maps with fog, instead the white area is rendered as "normal" map shading while visited but non-visible areas are slightly shaded. We'll continue to tweak this behavior over the next several releases.
Oooh. This will be in b5?

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Re: Thoughts on the 12B4 version

Post by trevor »

Phergus wrote:
trevor wrote:Done. Note: The white areas have gone away on maps with fog, instead the white area is rendered as "normal" map shading while visited but non-visible areas are slightly shaded. We'll continue to tweak this behavior over the next several releases.
Oooh. This will be in b5?
Yes
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Re: Thoughts on the 12B4 version

Post by Dracorat »

trevor wrote:Thanks for the great feedback fdwojo, it sounds like your requests match our short term development efforts :) Keep sending in those play experiences !
You bet he will get a chance! We play every other Saturday and decided to get a ninja-session in between on this coming Saturday.

BTW, with the changes to the toolbar, I will have to go update the Wiki. I wont do it until a build or two goes by without toolbar changes however.

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Re: Thoughts on the 12B4 version

Post by trevor »

Dracorat wrote:
trevor wrote:Thanks for the great feedback fdwojo, it sounds like your requests match our short term development efforts :) Keep sending in those play experiences !
You bet he will get a chance! We play every other Saturday and decided to get a ninja-session in between on this coming Saturday.

BTW, with the changes to the toolbar, I will have to go update the Wiki. I wont do it until a build or two goes by without toolbar changes however.
Yeah, still kinda in flux, and all the icons need revamping
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Re: Thoughts on the 12B4 version

Post by fdwojo »

trevor wrote:
fdwojo wrote:
Watch over the next two dev builds as I work on optimizing the vision features :)

<-- snip -->

Thanks for the great feedback fdwojo, it sounds like your requests match our short term development efforts :) Keep sending in those play experiences !
Thanks for the info, Trevor. I'm really looking forward to the next few versions. Sounds like I'm going to get my 2007 Christmas present very early! :wink:

FDWojo

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Re: Thoughts on the 12B4 version

Post by fdwojo »

I almost forgot something else I noticed when using MapTool over the weekend. This may be just a factor of the overhead on the CPU but when you right-click your pog and select the "Expose visible area", it takes about 1-2 seconds and it draws the map without F.O.W. and then it overlays the F.O.W. on the map to show only what would be visible at that time. What this means is that the member briefly gets a view of the revealed map area. Perhaps this might not be a problem once things are optimized, but ideally the 'naked' map shouldn't be shown to the player-clients.

FDWojo

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Post by trevor »

Weird, yeah that's a bug. I'll investigate that
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Re: Thoughts on the 12B4 version

Post by Big_Mac »

fdwojo wrote:I almost forgot something else I noticed when using MapTool over the weekend. This may be just a factor of the overhead on the CPU but when you right-click your pog and select the "Expose visible area", it takes about 1-2 seconds and it draws the map without F.O.W. and then it overlays the F.O.W. on the map to show only what would be visible at that time. What this means is that the member briefly gets a view of the revealed map area. Perhaps this might not be a problem once things are optimized, but ideally the 'naked' map shouldn't be shown to the player-clients.

FDWojo
What is your machine configuration(Ram,CPU, disk space)? Is sounds like you may also have had a system bottle neck. What other Application where you running?

I have seen that type of thing with lots of software but if you have something maxing out your CPU it can really make things slow.

It may be a bug but something to look into.
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