MapTool 1.3 Bugfix Build 70

[kkragenbrink]

So I've got all my players using b70 now, and it's generally working well, except that one of my players is on a Mac OS 10.3 (Tiger) and cannot possibly upgrade to Java 1.6. Is there anything in the codebase that inherently requires Java 1.6? If not, would it be possible to get one of you Mac afficionados out there to compile a 1.5-specific DMG for me? I'd really hate to have to downgrade back to an older version of MapTools. :/

[Phergus]

There are Java 6 calls made in the third-party libraries used by MT so ultimately Java 6 will be required. Note that Java 6 is coming up on End-of-Life in a few months. Time marches forward.

[Azhrei]

[...] one of my players is on a Mac OS 10.3 (Tiger) and cannot possibly upgrade to Java 1.6. :/

Well, 10.3 is Panther and only runs on the PowerPC chipset (such as the G4 and G5). 10.4 is Tiger and runs on both the PPC and the x86.

If they are truly on 10.3 (on a PowerPC), then their only upgrade path is the OpenJDK port to the Mac (called SoyLatte; they can Google it) but I would hesitate to say that OpenJDK is a finished product. It's more like a "final alpha" version or maybe "pre-beta". My experience with it (about 9 months old now) is that the OpenJDK has networking problems that prevent running a server, but it seems to function as a client just fine.

If they are on x84 (using 10.4 or later) then they do have an upgrade path, but it relies on spending money and upgrading their OS. Snow Leopard (10.6) runs on both 32-bit and 64-bit x86 chips, but the next version will be 64-bit only. If they're on 32-bit hardware they won't be able to upgrade at all at that point. I would suggest wiping OSX and installing Linux, but that solution may not be appreciated by everyone.

As Phergus says, "time waits for no man" and that applies to your player as well...

[kkragenbrink]

Yeah, I understand. They're on a PPC G4, so there really are no upgrade options available, and not nearly tech savvy enough to upgrade to linux or use the OpenJDK. We're just going to downgrade to b67 and stick with it. It's pretty much the only option we've got. Sadness.

[jfrazierjr]

Yeah, I understand. They're on a PPC G4, so there really are no upgrade options available, and not nearly tech savvy enough to upgrade to linux or use the OpenJDK. We're just going to downgrade to b67 and stick with it. It's pretty much the only option we've got. Sadness.

Downgrading is not going to fix the problem. The problem is that the third party libraries in use(which have been in use for the entire 1.3 series of Maptool... well... at least for a long time if not the whole time) are where these calls are located and there is no guarantee that you won't encounter issues even by downgrading 20+ versions. Just be forewarned that you "might" still have an issue, even if you never see this happen at all, it just depends on the functionality within maptool that the player ends up using.

[kkragenbrink]

Except that even I did not get 1.6 until p68, and they have been working just fine on p67 for a very ... very long time. Downgrading does in fact fix the problem.

[Azhrei]

His point is that just because you haven't had a problem yet only means that your use so far has not exercised a part of the code that demonstrates the problem. You could conceivably hit the problem the next time you run MapTool if all of the stars are aligned just so...

[Full Bleed]

Lets assume that all the tech guys are right. And one day, someday soon, MT would implode on a Java 1.5 build creating a black-hole that was sure to take a city the size of Manhattan with it.

That said, how hard would it be to compile a "use at your own risk" 1.5 java version every 5 versions or so?

Would a client using the 1.5 build not be able to connect to a server running a 1.6 build?

[nortonweb]

Don't cross the streams!!!

[kkragenbrink]

His point is that just because you haven't had a problem yet only means that your use so far has not exercised a part of the code that demonstrates the problem. You could conceivably hit the problem the next time you run MapTool if all of the stars are aligned just so...

Better a once-in-a-while bug than not being able to play. Asking a new player to upgrade to a whole new computer just for MapTools seems a bit silly.

[Full Bleed]

Better a once-in-a-while bug than not being able to play. Asking a new player to upgrade to a whole new computer just for MapTools seems a bit silly.

I agree, but, you can run b56, correct?

So, technically, there is an option for the mac graybeards... it just may not be compatible with the vast majority of MT users at this point.

If I started railing on Apple for being java-flash-silverlight-douches, I'd probably rile Az up enough for him to make a b70 java 1.5 build just to spite me.

I'll do the short version here:

Apple sucks.

(lets see if that works)

[jfrazierjr]

His point is that just because you haven't had a problem yet only means that your use so far has not exercised a part of the code that demonstrates the problem. You could conceivably hit the problem the next time you run MapTool if all of the stars are aligned just so...

Better a once-in-a-while bug than not being able to play. Asking a new player to upgrade to a whole new computer just for MapTools seems a bit silly.

What he said... but my point also is that you might as well upgrade as you will as "we"(the developers )will not intentionally put any Java 1.6 features into the Maptool code as long as we are working on version 1.3(of course, there are no guarantees for 1.4+). Again, at the end of the day, you are just as likely to encounter the issue with whatever version you fell back to as you would with the latest build since the problem is within stuff we did not build but utilize.

Developer Speak

of course, one thing that REALLY tweaks my nose is that a lot of the code in Commons collections are utilizing at least this one Java 1.6 feature, BUT they did not take the time to implement generics.

[Azhrei]

I agree, but, you can run b56, correct?

Actually, they can run b70.

There is nothing in MapTool that requires Java 6.

But... Some of the precompiled/distributed libraries that we use do have Java 6 requirements. People running Java 5 have just been lucky* so far that the code using those features hasn't been executed yet.

I'd probably rile Az up enough for him to make a b70 java 1.5 build just to spite me.

Heh. It's already Java 5 compatible.


*Note: "Lucky" depends on one's point of view. I think errors are better if they occur the first time you run the program. If they happen only after 2 years of using the application the user stands to (potentially) lose a lot of data!

[kkragenbrink]

And thus we come back to my original question ... could I get a Java 5 compiled b70 dmg? The Mac in question loads up to b67 just fine. Anything after that horks.

[jfrazierjr]

And thus we come back to my original question ... could I get a Java 5 compiled b70 dmg? The Mac in question loads up to b67 just fine. Anything after that horks.

No... your still not getting the problem. The third party libraries used by every version of Maptool since 1.3b1 have the problem. There is nothing we can do to change the issue aside from ripping out all of those libraries and all the functionality that the Maptool code contains that use those libraries. I will say that one of the libraries (commons collections) is used in probably 50% of the code or more, so this is just not feasible as it would take hundreds(if not thousands) of hours to recode.