Legality of a True 4E Char Builder?
Moderators: dorpond, trevor, Azhrei
Re: Legality of a True 4E Char Builder?
Maybe I don't understand what you are asking for.
Re: Legality of a True 4E Char Builder?
I'd like to see the birth of a new RPG System that is really open. Something with no legal or commercial restrictions upon which people can build open tools or even commercial tools. Since RPTools has really a lot of users, I'd like to see that effort being started "officially" here amd possibly from the RPTools guys 
Re: Legality of a True 4E Char Builder?
Start it up, man. 
Go into the user creation forum, declare your intent and guidelines. Recruit developers. Build a framework. Post it in user creations. Hope it gets used.
If it does, it's your dream come true, eh?
You're right that nobody's doing this... yet. Somebody has to start it off and you could be that guy.
Maybe go pathfinder-ish and develop your own roughly D&D-based d20 product to which you have the legal rights. This will give you a framework within which to build your framework.
Go into the user creation forum, declare your intent and guidelines. Recruit developers. Build a framework. Post it in user creations. Hope it gets used.
If it does, it's your dream come true, eh?
You're right that nobody's doing this... yet. Somebody has to start it off and you could be that guy.
Maybe go pathfinder-ish and develop your own roughly D&D-based d20 product to which you have the legal rights. This will give you a framework within which to build your framework.
Drop-In Utilities:
My Spell Manager for D&D3.5 and PFRPG
My Inventory Manager for D&D and PFRPG, but more generally useable than that.
My Message Manager -- My Top-Down D&D Token Images
and my Custom Initiative & Status/Spell-Effect Tracker (work in progress, but functional).
My Spell Manager for D&D3.5 and PFRPG
My Inventory Manager for D&D and PFRPG, but more generally useable than that.
My Message Manager -- My Top-Down D&D Token Images
and my Custom Initiative & Status/Spell-Effect Tracker (work in progress, but functional).
Re: Legality of a True 4E Char Builder?
The problem i see here is that there seems to multiple discussions on seperate but related issues.
on one hand there is the discussion about the 4e character creator and why it costs money and why theres no free alternative. the answer seems relatively simple to me, and thats because wizards just doesnt allow it, from what i understand. basically, they're legal docs say that only certain parts of the ruleset can be used by third parties (the parts that at this point have been usd in so many products,could likely be called public domain). since they don't allow any of the other info (such as feats or powers) to be republished,atleast w/o permission means no one can make anything that contains that info, which would make for a pretty lackluster creator. the most i've seen was one that just included the names of feats and possibly levels and that was it that generated an html page.
as for why there is no open source game systems, i think it comes down to marketting and presentation. it takes a fair amount to overcome 'the giant' and even the lesser knowns, and even if people prefer a pdf over a dead tree, they still generally want the production values OF a dead tree version,a bunch of words and tables won't cut it by any means.
on one hand there is the discussion about the 4e character creator and why it costs money and why theres no free alternative. the answer seems relatively simple to me, and thats because wizards just doesnt allow it, from what i understand. basically, they're legal docs say that only certain parts of the ruleset can be used by third parties (the parts that at this point have been usd in so many products,could likely be called public domain). since they don't allow any of the other info (such as feats or powers) to be republished,atleast w/o permission means no one can make anything that contains that info, which would make for a pretty lackluster creator. the most i've seen was one that just included the names of feats and possibly levels and that was it that generated an html page.
as for why there is no open source game systems, i think it comes down to marketting and presentation. it takes a fair amount to overcome 'the giant' and even the lesser knowns, and even if people prefer a pdf over a dead tree, they still generally want the production values OF a dead tree version,a bunch of words and tables won't cut it by any means.
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Jan van Leyden
- Cave Troll
- Posts: 34
- Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2009 2:25 am
Re: Legality of a True 4E Char Builder?
Right, the contents of all WotC-produced books is WotC's intellectual property, meaning that they have the full rights of control as to who may use it for what purpose. For 3E they made an excerpt of those rules, the System Reference Document (SRD), and put it under a specific license, the Open Gaming License. All material contained in the SRD can legally used by 3rd parties, can be reproduced, modified, whatever, the catch being that only a tiny portion of the material published by WotC is contained in the SRD. You may make your own products with this stuff, but would be limited to, basically, the PHB, DMG, and MM; no Complete Whatevers, no Forgotten Realms or Eberron stuff.aku wrote:the answer seems relatively simple to me, and thats because wizards just doesnt allow it, from what i understand.
For 4E WotC changed this model: the SRD for 4E doesn't give the complete game data ready to be copied and pasted but limits itself to a list of references 3rd parties may use.
Monsters (see the D&D 4E MONSTER MANUAL):
Bugbear Strangler, 2 Bugbear Warriors, and 3 hobgoblin soldiers.
Wrong. What has, among a lot of other things, changed from SRD/OGL to GSL, which handles such stuff for 4E, is that the GSL allows only references to the original, WotC-published material. Instead of giving the full stats of a Hippy Orc Weirdo you may only give the monster's name and source like:aku wrote:basically, they're legal docs say that only certain parts of the ruleset can be used by third parties (the parts that at this point have been usd in so many products,could likely be called public domain).
Monsters (see the D&D 4E MONSTER MANUAL):
Hippy orc guru, 2 hippy orc junkies, and 3 hippy orc weirdos.
And no, the (mis-) use of this license does in no way mean that the material has entered public domain.
No open source game systems? That's new to me.aku wrote:as for why there is no open source game systems, i think it comes down to marketting and presentation. it takes a fair amount to overcome 'the giant' and even the lesser knowns, and even if people prefer a pdf over a dead tree, they still generally want the production values OF a dead tree version,a bunch of words and tables won't cut it by any means.
Just check out John Kim's list of, as he puts it, free games released under some form of "open" license: http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/free ... cense.html or http://www.dungeons-daring.org/daring/index.htm. There's a whole lot of stuff out there, but you're right, not a single one of these systems is able to gain some traction beyond the core fan groups.Huldvoll
Jan van Leyden
Re: Legality of a True 4E Char Builder?
I guess I should take the advice of plothos, start a new thread and put together some ideas. That would be nice, but it will not work. How is that? Because no one knows me and thus there will be no participation ... I am totally new to this forum but not to RPG after 22 years of practically uninterrupted sessions; yes, I know, I am old. That is why I am proposing to make this a RPTools effort, because this site and community have the drive to move on with such an idea.
Re: Legality of a True 4E Char Builder?
Projects need someone to start them, and you know what you'd like it to do...I say start the thread.franco wrote:I guess I should take the advice of plothos, start a new thread and put together some ideas. That would be nice, but it will not work. How is that? Because no one knows me and thus there will be no participation ... I am totally new to this forum but not to RPG after 22 years of practically uninterrupted sessions; yes, I know, I am old. That is why I am proposing to make this a RPTools effort, because this site and community have the drive to move on with such an idea.
Re: Legality of a True 4E Char Builder?
I for one would not ignore you or the effort just because you have a low post number.franco wrote:That would be nice, but it will not work. How is that? Because no one knows me and thus there will be no participation ... I am totally new to this forum but not to RPG after 22 years of practically uninterrupted sessions.
Coming in with a good idea and starting up something like this is a great way to introduce yourself.
Drop-In Utilities:
My Spell Manager for D&D3.5 and PFRPG
My Inventory Manager for D&D and PFRPG, but more generally useable than that.
My Message Manager -- My Top-Down D&D Token Images
and my Custom Initiative & Status/Spell-Effect Tracker (work in progress, but functional).
My Spell Manager for D&D3.5 and PFRPG
My Inventory Manager for D&D and PFRPG, but more generally useable than that.
My Message Manager -- My Top-Down D&D Token Images
and my Custom Initiative & Status/Spell-Effect Tracker (work in progress, but functional).
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KKDragonLord
- Kobold
- Posts: 12
- Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 2:49 pm
Re: Legality of a True 4E Char Builder?
I believe that if you make it so that it only works by using information made availabe with the D&D Insider, WotC would thank you for it and allow it to be.
there are currently some stuff in the user creations that work like that and all sorts of Apps made for 4e can be found browsing through the wizards community but all of them have in common that they need access to D&Di to allow the automatic use of "confidential" information.
there are currently some stuff in the user creations that work like that and all sorts of Apps made for 4e can be found browsing through the wizards community but all of them have in common that they need access to D&Di to allow the automatic use of "confidential" information.
Re: Legality of a True 4E Char Builder?
I am myself a D&D Insider subscriber since it was created but this is not my idea of open and free.KKDragonLord wrote:I believe that if you make it so that it only works by using information made availabe with the D&D Insider, WotC would thank you for it and allow it to be.☺
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KKDragonLord
- Kobold
- Posts: 12
- Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 2:49 pm
Re: Legality of a True 4E Char Builder?
well some stuff can't be free
the free option would be a "configurator" that would require the input of all the "classified" information
but the Automated option would require a D&Di subscription
both are interesting
the free option would be a "configurator" that would require the input of all the "classified" information
but the Automated option would require a D&Di subscription
both are interesting
Re: Legality of a True 4E Char Builder?
I have no problems with people making profit on games, that is why I buy and enjoy them. Even so, creating tools is a very big effort and personally I can't think about investing my time on a project that is reserved (at least partially) to people that pay someone else for it.KKDragonLord wrote:well some stuff can't be free
This is the main reason why I would like to have a system that is free and open and upon which anyone (even for money) can build on.
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jfrazierjr
- Deity
- Posts: 5176
- Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 7:31 pm
Re: Legality of a True 4E Char Builder?
Though I can't say for sure, I seem to think Fudge is that way from what I have heard about it.franco wrote:I have no problems with people making profit on games, that is why I buy and enjoy them. Even so, creating tools is a very big effort and personally I can't think about investing my time on a project that is reserved (at least partially) to people that pay someone else for it.KKDragonLord wrote:well some stuff can't be free
This is the main reason why I would like to have a system that is free and open and upon which anyone (even for money) can build on.
I save all my Campaign Files to DropBox. Not only can I access a campaign file from pretty much any OS that will run Maptool(Win,OSX, linux), but each file is versioned, so if something goes crazy wild, I can always roll back to a previous version of the same file.
Get your Dropbox 2GB via my referral link, and as a bonus, I get an extra 250 MB of space. Even if you don't don't use my link, I still enthusiastically recommend Dropbox..
Get your Dropbox 2GB via my referral link, and as a bonus, I get an extra 250 MB of space. Even if you don't don't use my link, I still enthusiastically recommend Dropbox..