GM "monitoring" of Whispers

[kristof65]

During my last session, I thought two of my players were bored, not participating and generally not paying attention to the game, since they were very quiet on Ventrillo. Turns out they were listening to me and the other players, but were actually using whispers in MT chat for a conversation between their characters - which in the end made the entire session more fun - but I digress.

I was wondering if there was a way for the GM to monitor who's whispering to who and/or copy those whispers to the GM? Actually, I don't really need to know what the players are saying to each other, but it would be helpful for me to see who is speaking to who (or is that whom to whom? or who to whom? I give up).

I'm assuming there isn't, since I can't find anything, but is there an elegant way to use macro code to do so? Since all of the players were new to MT when we started, I helped them all program up macro buttons using the following code to whisper to each other:

/w bob {OOC2bob}

where bob is each players name.

I played around with adding the following code to their "PM buttons":
/w GM I'm talking to ann

it works, but is there a more elegant solution?

Note passing between players has always been a huge part of my face to face campaigns, so I don't really care what they're saying to each other, but I do miss the ability to see who's passing notes to each other

[Azhrei]

This came up in my last Tuesday night game as well, but in a different way: two players' characters were whispering to each other (in-game and in MapTool) when another PC rolled a Listen check and wanted to know what they were saying. I couldn't tell him.

From an in-game perspective the GM needs to know what is being said for situations like this. So I'm thinking that whispers should also go to all GMs who are connected. Except a whisper to/from a GM shouldn't be cc'd to others. This allows for those situations where multiple GMs are running a game as the primary GM has delegated some group of NPCs (for example) to another GM to run for while.

Strange how I've been using MapTool since April 2008 and this is the first time it's come up...

[kristof65]

whoa - I never even thought about it in terms of other PCs or NPCs overhearing their conversations. In my case, it was that I thought I wasn't keeping the player's interested in the game - but I can see how a GM might need to "overhear" a conversation.

Ideally, as a feature request, I'd love the ability for player to player whispers to be copied to the GM, but more as a link I could click on to view the conversation should I desire. That lets the players keep their converstions "private", but allows me to see it should I feel the need to.

In the meantime, I'm going to try ammending the macros with the code I mentioned above. It's not a perfect solution, but it works.

Unless someone has a better idea before Tuesday?

[Brigand]

If this gets implemented, I will stop using MapTool and tell everyone to stop using it. Period. The DM does not need access to private conversations between two players. Ever. If the DM needs to know something, the players can provide that info themselves. The DM does not need and should not ever have access to private conversations.

[Azhrei]

whoa - I never even thought about it in terms of other PCs or NPCs overhearing their conversations. [...]

Ideally, as a feature request, I'd love the ability for player to player whispers to be copied to the GM, but more as a link I could click on to view the conversation should I desire. That lets the players keep their converstions "private", but allows me to see it should I feel the need to.

Hmm, that's an interesting solution. And it's doable right now by just choosing a foreground and background color combination that makes it invisible until you highlight it with the mouse. Another option would be to create a simply macro (like the one Rumble just posted) which uses the new [w:] and [g:] roll options. I know one player would use it simply because it's NOT the chat window!

Part of my problem is that the PCs who were whispering didn't know that one of their other party members was listening in on them. I told the player who made the Listen check that he needed to ask the other players what they were saying because I couldn't tell. But the job of the GM is to adjudicate rules (things like, "What do I hear behind the door?") and I can't do that without full disclosure. The link idea works well because in most cases I wouldn't need to use it. There's nothing to stop the players from using some other IM client. But imagine trial participants whispering to each other in front of a judge -- how long do you think that would be allowed to go on?

We use a Vent server that has two subchannels and we'll use them for some in-game stuff if it's a long-term discussion. But for a few simple whispers back and forth it's easier to just type. I have one player without a mic, so it's particularly hard since that tends to make things very quiet for the other players while he and I are whispering. Fortunately he's a pretty quick typist.

[Full Bleed]

Actually, there are plenty of times when players shouldn't be able to communicate thoughts and ideas without potential ramifications. They may think they can communicate quietly, but something might very well be overhearing/seeing everything they do. And while I generally trust my players, it's pretty tempting for them to pass on information through a whisper that they're fairly certain I wouldn't let them pass along "out loud." That kind of meta-gaming is extremely annoying to a GM.

I might lose a player like Brigand in a game, but I'd get over it. If players want to pass notes outside the game, they can use another IM. MT shouldn't encourage them to "get around" the GM just because they can. I'd rather tell my players to keep all game related conversations within MT and that as the GM I will be able to see everything. Then they can choose whether or not to use something else for extra-curricular conversations.

However, I do believe that making this a preference would be a good idea.

[Rumble]

I'm on Brigand's side here - I've always understood the whisper function to be specifically for situations where nobody else hears. It's an abstract issue for me; I've never used whisper in a game, ever, but if my players are...then that's how it goes.

I wouldn't necessarily stop using MapTool, but if a whisper isn't private...what's the point of having it?

[Phergus]

The whisper function should be used to indicate that two characters are communicating in private. And everything a character says to anyone should be known by the GM.

As Full Bleed has already pointed out neither the players nor their characters are going to know if anyone is listening in or not. That's for the GM to know. If the players feel they can't trust the GM knowing what their characters are saying to each other why are they playing under that GM in the first place?

[Brigand]

The whisper function is for players, not characters. As I said, if the privacy of private communication is ever violated because some GM gets their panties in a twist, I will stop using MapTool and I will make sure to let others know not to use it as well. Just out of principle, even though there are a thousand other ways to communicate privately outside of MapTool.

[brad]

Maybe this could help, especially if you are providing the code for the macros. This is the code I use for whispering in my game. I have a Token Property called "whisper", so using this code it remembers who the last person you whispered to was and automatically selects that person, which is very convenient.

Code: Select all

[h: playerList = getAllPlayerNames()]

[h: fail = input(
  "message | message | Message | text",
  "whisper  | " + playerList + " | Choose | radio | select=" + whisper
)]
[h: abort(fail)]

[s, w(listGet(playerList, whisper)): message]

This prints out the whisper to you and the person you whispered to. Change that last line to

Code: Select all

[g, s, w(listGet(playerList, whisper)): message]

and it will print to the gm as well. Though the gm may get a double post if he is the one whispering or being whispered to. Not sure about that. In any case you could tell you players to use the /w command if the Players are whispering between themselves, but to use this code if Characters are talking to each other, as you might need to know something.

[Full Bleed]

The whisper function is for players, not characters.

The primary purpose of MT is to facilitate games. RPG's in particular. And, as such, the chat window is there more for the game in progress than for some player's off-topic chatting. Where you think the tool should be built to facilitate idle private banter and allow players to pass information around the GM, I think it should be entirely focused on the game.

Characters should be able to whisper to other players in a manner or fashion that excludes other players. Their characters, however, should not be able to communicate without the GM knowing what the communication is (for reasons already clearly explained.)

The resolution to this problem is to have an "In-Character Whisper" feature that GM's always get to see and an "Out-Of-Character Whisper" feature that they don't. However, GM's should have the ability to disallow OOC-whispers if they want to.

And if any player gets their panties in a twist they can go find another game or another VTT (or another messenger outside the game.) Believe it or not, the one thing the vast majority of competent GM's have little trouble doing is getting butts in seats. And every GM wants a whiny player crying about being able to talk privately about off-topic stuff during a game like a teacher wants kids in the back to their classroom passing notes, texting, or chatting with their neighbor.

Most good players limit that sort of behavior out of basic respect. But giving them tools to seamlessly get around the GM only encourages meta-gaming and distraction.

[Azhrei]

[...] In any case you could tell you players to use the /w command if the Players are whispering between themselves, but to use this code if Characters are talking to each other, as you might need to know something.

Thanks, Brad. Something like this -- or like Rumble's SpeakEasy (heh) macro -- would work fine for me, I think.

[Minch Ruwin]

In my campaign, we use MT for whispers, and IM for out of game conversations. It would be handy to have the GM be able to see the whispers.

But I can also see Brigand's viewpoint (somewhat) and would agree with others that if the feature is created, it could be turned on and off by the GM. Perhaps turning it on could generate a notice to the PCs so that they could chose to join a game or not.

In the meantime, I'm going to give brad's code a whirl. Thanks brad!

My two cents.

Later! Minch.

[kristof65]

Thanks for the code brad, I'll give it a try.

@Brigand - like almost every other function in MT, the /w function will get applied and used in the manner that best works for the group using them. In your games, the /w function may be used exclusively for player to player communication, in someone else's game it may be used exclusively for PC to PC communication. In my game, it's used for both.

I'm looking at this from the perspective of a long time face to face GM who has always encouraged note passing and private conversations between players/characters. In my face to face games, players frequently pass notes to one another, step out of the room to discuss things, and I've even had groups send me out of the room so they could talk privately. I have no problems with that.

In each of those cases, I am aware that a conversation is going on, though most of the time I have no idea of the contents until the players spring their suprises upon me. If two players have stepped out of the room to have a private conversation, I can pause the game, or concentrate on another PC if necessary. If an NPC or PC makes the appropropriate rolls to overhear that conversation, myself or the other player can step into the other room with those players to "eavesdrop" as required. In most cases it's not required - my key point here is that as GM I know a private conversation is going on. I don't have to be party to it, but it's very helpful to be aware of it. As I mentioned earlier, I don't really care so much about the content of the conversations, I just want to be aware that they are taking place, just like I can see when two players step out of my game room, or are passing notes between each other.

I must admit that I'm really shocked at the hostility you've shown towards the idea. My understanding is that MT is supposed to be a tool to help GMs run RPGs online while as smoothly as they might run a face to face game. Asking for this function is, IMHO, simply another way to help me run a game, not some nefarious means to spy on my players. Frankly, I feel that there are enough ways already for players to have private conversations outside of MT that the inclusion of this feature shouldn't be a huge issue - most players could bypass it quite easily by using one of the many IM clients available, like MSN, Yahoo, AOL, etc.

Obviously, if implemented, it should be settable to the GMs choice when the server is started, and some sort of flag /alert should be shown to tell players it's active.

[dorpond]

This is my thought:

We are talking about a Virtual Game Table. With that said, let's take out the virtual and put all your friends around a real table. Try to remember back when you played this way.

I recall players saying things outloud for all to hear and I recall players passing papers back and forth between other players and the GM.

Now, I also recall that when I as the GM saw two players passing papers back and forth without me knowing what it was about, I was like "What is going on?" because I got the feeling they were falling out of character for that moment or that if it was in character, it may need a listen check or something from the others in the area.

The thing is - at the real table, the GM can see the players passing note - the GM sees everything that is going on. We don't have that in a our virtual space.

So with that, I would suggest that we have some visual indicator when players are whispering and to perhaps to whom. I would also like the ability so that the DM could ask the player for the whisper he was sending - perhaps highlighting the text in chat, right clicking, and 'send to <player names>'.

Now, going back to a virtual game table - it can get terribly boring sometimes when we are not face to face. Add in individual views and sometimes there are moments where a player cannot see the party (around a corner) nor can they see any enemies. They sit there bored for 15 minutes seeing nothing, waiting for their turn to come back around. In this case, I can see where a player might want to chit chat with another player in secret - talk about Diablo 3 or the latest movie. What is it hurting?

So I can see both sides.