GM "monitoring" of Whispers

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Nonsapient
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Re: GM "monitoring" of Whispers

Post by Nonsapient »

I can as well. I'd say allow or disallow the two versions (IC, and OOC). I for one would love the ability to push a whisper to my players as said above.

We're not talking about breaking OOC privacy. Simply allowing the possibility of observing private moments IC.

Otherwise it breaks immersion (Timmy whispers to Tom that he is about to step in a trap, and no-one can tell that it happened, including the player who is beside the both of them).

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kristof65
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Re: GM "monitoring" of Whispers

Post by kristof65 »

dorpond - your viewpoint seems to be mine exactly.
So with that, I would suggest that we have some visual indicator when players are whispering and to perhaps to whom. I would also like the ability so that the DM could ask the player for the whisper he was sending - perhaps highlighting the text in chat, right clicking, and 'send to <player names>'.
I like that solution

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Full Bleed
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Re: GM "monitoring" of Whispers

Post by Full Bleed »

dorpond wrote:They sit there bored for 15 minutes seeing nothing, waiting for their turn to come back around. In this case, I can see where a player might want to chit chat with another player in secret - talk about Diablo 3 or the latest movie. What is it hurting?
I can see both sides, that's why I think IC Whispers and OOC Whispers are the solution (with the GM's ability to disallow OOC whispers.) It's really a per game situation... maybe even a per moment situation. There may, for example, be moments in the game when I'd actually like to see my players take a "private" conversation private because it's distracting.

But to answer your question, "What's it hurt?"--Frankly, it can hurt focus. PC's get going on a personal conversation while the GM is looking something up, then when the GM begins again, they're still doing it. Two paragraphs into some new important details, one of the PC's chimes in, "What just happened? I missed it!" Well, they missed it because they were wrapping up their private, non-game related conversation during the game. Something they'd never do in a face-to-face game. It was happening all the time when I was using Oovoo. Sometimes it was the TV, websurfing, texting, wives/gf's, kids, or other distractions... but because I could hear and see when players were in deep OOC conversation I also knew when they were missing important things because of that. Some distractions online are inevitable. But some (like this) can be encouraged or discouraged. Giving the GM the tools to do it makes sense to me. If I ban OOC conversation at a certain point in my game, my players will know that what's going on is serious, that they need to lean forward in their seats and pay attention. When I'm looking stuff up or if I'm preoccupied with another player's issue, maybe I'd be fine with OOC conversation. Etc.

One user just said that he didn't mind leaving the room so his players could "spring" something on him. See, that's an example of a situation where I start to have a problem with it. Most times, there is no reason for an entire group to speak without the GM present to manufacture some magnificent plan that they think the GM will spoil if they know about it. First, it may be circumstantially impossible. Second, it creates a PC vs GM atmosphere. I prefer to run games that have as little of that in it as possible. I feel when the PC's are plotting against me it breaks in-game immersion... I want them plotting against the character/creatures in the game. It's a distinction that I see clearly and one that may not mean as much to others, which is fine. I've known plenty of GM's that revel in the Me VS PC scenario. I don't.

Bottom line, most of us are going to be able to come up with great scenarios and game-styles where this does, or does not, matter to them. MT can accommodate all of them with IC/OOC Whispers (with OOC permissions.) I'm not going to quit using MT if I don't get my way, but it can be done in a way to appeal to just about everyone and every situation.
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kristof65
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Re: GM "monitoring" of Whispers

Post by kristof65 »

You bring up some good points Full Bleed. Something to consider for 1.4 might very well be some good tools to help seperate IC and OOC chat - possibly seperate chat windows, ability to set fonts based on situations, toggle between IC and OOC conversations, etc.

Full Bleed wrote: One user just said that he didn't mind leaving the room so his players could "spring" something on him. See, that's an example of a situation where I start to have a problem with it. Most times, there is no reason for an entire group to speak without the GM present to manufacture some magnificent plan that they think the GM will spoil if they know about it. First, it may be circumstantially impossible. Second, it creates a PC vs GM atmosphere. I prefer to run games that have as little of that in it as possible. I feel when the PC's are plotting against me it breaks in-game immersion... I want them plotting against the character/creatures in the game. It's a distinction that I see clearly and one that may not mean as much to others, which is fine. I've known plenty of GM's that revel in the Me VS PC scenario. I don't.
I beleive that was me, and I'm the OP. And it's never been about players vs GM in my campaigns. Anyone who's played in one of my face to face games for any length of time knows that I'm the type of GM who likes to sit back and listen to the players discuss things both IC and OOC. I very often co-opt their own ideas to use, since I do most of my GMing off the cuff. I've had the pleasure of unleashing some very horrible "surprises" on the PCs that were their very own "suggestions" I overheard during their IC and/or OOC conversations and twisted to my own ends. They know I do this, and I think it's one of the reasons I am lucky enough have the loyal players I have - they enjoy the feeling of contributing.

But, as capable as I am of holding a poker face in most situations and not letting onto what my plans are, sometimes I get so amused by the player's discussions that I become a distraction to them - that's usually when I get asked to leave - so they don't metagame. In that regard, MT and Ventrillo really help - I've been ROTFL at some of the player discussions, and none of my player's have been the wiser.

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Brigand
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Re: GM "monitoring" of Whispers

Post by Brigand »

Full Bleed wrote:
Brigand wrote:The whisper function is for players, not characters.
The primary purpose of MT is to facilitate games. RPG's in particular. And, as such, the chat window is there more for the game in progress than for some player's off-topic chatting. Where you think the tool should be built to facilitate idle private banter and allow players to pass information around the GM, I think it should be entirely focused on the game.
I don't give a darn what you think the chat window is built to facilitate. Private communication should always be private. Period. Yes, I'm quite hostile to my privacy being invaded by nosy DM's who should worry more about the game and less about what someone is chatting about privately. If you have trouble with meta-gaming players, it doesn't matter if you ban /w or monitor it. They'll just use an IRC or IM program instead.

Altering how /w works right now is a waste of time.

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Full Bleed
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Re: GM "monitoring" of Whispers

Post by Full Bleed »

Brigand wrote:Private communication should always be private. Period.
And you keep neglecting to acknowledge the basic principle that a whisper IN CHARACTER is not private in a game. Nor do you address the multitude of other concerns raised here by a number of people.

But, I expected no less.
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Brigand
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Re: GM "monitoring" of Whispers

Post by Brigand »

Full Bleed wrote:
Brigand wrote:Private communication should always be private. Period.
And you keep neglecting to acknowledge the basic principle that a whisper IN CHARACTER is not private in a game. Nor do you address the multitude of other concerns raised here by a number of people.

But, I expected no less.
The GM doesn't need to know everything.

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Farland
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Re: GM "monitoring" of Whispers

Post by Farland »

I think the GM needs to be able to overhear whispers.
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Azhrei
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Re: GM "monitoring" of Whispers

Post by Azhrei »

Farland wrote:I think the GM needs to be able to overhear whispers.
Agreed. The GM is essentially the "all-knowing, all-seeing" deity while in-game. There's no other choice.

Imagine playing a game where EVERY player kept their character's action secret FROM EVERYONE. Who would decide what the outcomes are? Obviously, no one could. So to draw an arbitrary line at "whispers" while saying that the the GM does know about all other actions is disingenuous at best.

Regardless, any implementation of a feature like this would be an option. Individual GMs are free to use the facility or not, as they wish for their game.

Nothing like this will make it into 1.3, but it seems valid enough to provide an option of some kind for 1.4.

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Brigand
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Re: GM "monitoring" of Whispers

Post by Brigand »

Again, if the ability for a GM to monitor whispers goes into MapTool... I will not use it and I will promote any other vtt program out there over MapTool. There is absolutely no reason at all for a players privacy to be violated because some GM has their knickers in a twist.

In a face to face game, if I pass a note to another player or send them a txt on my cell phone, the GM has no right at all to ask to see it. Monitoring whispers in MapTool is no different. Private communication should remain private, period.

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brad
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Re: GM "monitoring" of Whispers

Post by brad »

Brigand. I understand your want to have this feature as an option that can be turned on and off. Then if you feel as strongly as you do, you can just not play with those GMs that turn it on. But, MapTool has always been about being a platform for everyone. You talk about excluding those GMs that have the opposite view as you, because they don't have that option. That seems the same as hard wiring certain gaming mechanics in MapTool towards certain gaming systems.

Myself I am neutral, we have side rooms in ventrilo that players are free to go in if they are not in the scene and want to conspire about something, but I guess I can't understand why you would be against having it as an option. Of course, it should be an option that the players would know was on or off.
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Re: GM "monitoring" of Whispers

Post by Nonsapient »

This isn't about privacy. It's about being able to better simulate certain situations. There are instances where, IC, privacy will be violated.

A good roleplayer will understand this; that's how life works. Just like anything else bad that can happen to their character (wife leaves them, son dies, the king decides he is to be exiled wrongly) they will take it in stride.

This isn't so much about metagaming for me as it is about the ability to deal with ethereal intruders that piggy-back a PC, or Demi-Gods with +200 listen check modifiers.

So I guess we're really looking for the ability to have IC whisper separated from OOC whisper, with all the inherent hazards possible in the game world present.

This isn't an ethical debate; it's kind of silly to oppose an added option, especially if everyone involved will be aware of its use before hand.

I myself like to have a good idea of my PCs special plans; both so I can point out where they already have knowledge of possible problems, and remove obstacles they are not yet aware of that would spell the doom of a particularly creative plan.

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Minch Ruwin
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Re: GM "monitoring" of Whispers

Post by Minch Ruwin »

Again, if the ability for a GM to monitor whispers goes into MapTool... I will not use it and I will promote any other vtt program out there over MapTool.
Terrorism is alive and well apparently. :(

Later! Minch

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kristof65
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Re: GM "monitoring" of Whispers

Post by kristof65 »

nonsapient & azhrei - well said. That is my view point here.

I didn't have time to implement and test brad's macro before my game last night, but I did ask the players to add the "/w gm I'm talking to so & so" command to their PM macros.

Sure, my chat screen had a lot of "Laura whispers I'm talking to Adam" and "Adam whispers I'm taking to Laura", but overall, I was much more aware of the flow of the game. That was a big help, even without being able to see exactly what they were talking about. At one point, the whole group was furiously conversing with each other, which gave me a break to do something else.

Not only did my players have no problem with this, two of the players suggested we modify the macro to just copy me their whispers. No one had an issue with this, I just didn't feel it was necessary at this point in time.

brigand - I find my self wondering how you feel about the /impersonate option? If the ability for a GM to look at someone elses whisper would be a violation of privacy, isn't the /impersonate command akin to identity theft when used to impersonate another player?

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Full Bleed
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Re: GM "monitoring" of Whispers

Post by Full Bleed »

Brigand wrote:Again, if the ability for a GM to monitor whispers goes into MapTool... I will not use it and I will promote any other vtt program out there over MapTool.
I'm starting a fund-raiser to get this feature into Maptool, ASAP.

PM me if you would like to contribute.
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