Remember revealed fog of war

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alaundo
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Remember revealed fog of war

Post by alaundo »

Hi there!

Whenever we stop playing to continue some other day, all the revealed fog of war turns black again. We use individual FoW for each player and auto reveal on movement. Is it possible for the GM to save the already revealed parts for each player, so that MapTool remembers it for the next time?

Thanks!
Alaundo

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Azhrei
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Re: Remember revealed fog of war

Post by Azhrei »

alaundo wrote:Hi there!

Whenever we stop playing to continue some other day, all the revealed fog of war turns black again. We use individual FoW for each player and auto reveal on movement.

Strange; it should be remembering that information.

The FOW is stored as a field in each map. That field keeps track of which tokens have seen which parts of the map. Unless you manually reset it (using the drawing tools or the keyboard shortcuts) it should be identical when you reload the campaign.

I've not heard of this problem before so it's likely that there's something specific to your setup that is causing this. Things to check:

* which version of MapTool?
* which version of Java? (Include 32 or 64 bit)
* what OS and version? (Include 32 or 64 bit)
* what is the memory configuration when starting MapTool?
* are there any errors about running out of memory during use of MT?

This really sounds like it could be a memory problem, hence the memory questions in the above list... If it /is/ a memory problem, you might work around it by switching to an empty map before saving the campaign -- only the map currently being displayed consumes memory so switching to a small one can free up some RAM.

Akodo Makama
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Re: Remember revealed fog of war

Post by Akodo Makama »

I could also be the simple pilot error of not realizing that the FOW is saved as part of the "campaign" file, and the GM not saving the campaign at the end of the night. Or, the players not logging in under the same name as before, and therefore have no FOW history saved under the new name.

Vetinari
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Re: Remember revealed fog of war

Post by Vetinari »

Hi!

I'm the GM running the MapTool server.

*MapTool 1.3b89
*Java 7.25 (64 bit)
*Windows 7 (64 bit)
*Configuration: Max Mem 1024 MB, Min Mem 64 MB, Stack Size 6 MB
*I can't remember any errors concerning memory usage

When starting a server I choose the following options:
*Players can reveal vision = ON
*Auto Reveal On Movement = ON
*Use Individual Views = ON
*Use Individual FOW = ON

We are using a huge map (7000 x 494 px, 13.8 MB) so I decided to use a Dropbox repository which effectively reduced the download time. But I don't think the repository is the problem. The first time the problem occurred, my internet connection crashed but as we realised that the FOV savings were gone we tried saving the campaign after revealing a little bit of it. Sadly this didn't change anything and it was gone again afer reloading the campaign.

Thanks!

Vetinari

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Azhrei
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Re: Remember revealed fog of war

Post by Azhrei »

Vetinari wrote:The first time the problem occurred, my internet connection crashed but as we realised that the FOV savings were gone we tried saving the campaign after revealing a little bit of it. Sadly this didn't change anything and it was gone again afer reloading the campaign.

Hm. And you're sure the save worked? Other changes made to the campaign were reflected therein just not the FOW?

Did the players login with the same names as previously, as Akodo asked? I don't remember, but isn't FOW based on the token and not the player?

Can you recreate this situation? Perhaps a super small campaign file -- no maps needed at all, in fact, just use the default Grasslands map. If you can replicate the problem and upload the campaign file we might be able to track it down. I've never heard of this problem before. :(

Vetinari
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Re: Remember revealed fog of war

Post by Vetinari »

Using the following procedure and playing around with different settings we somehow found out what our problem is.

1. I create a map and save the campaign.
2. I start the server.
3. The other player connects and moves his token around.
4. I save, disconnect the server and close everything.
5. I start MapTool again and load the map.
6. I start the server again.

I think we found the problem. When we play with deactivated vision everything works fine and MapTool remembers revealed FOW even after step 6. But when we play with vision set to day or night the following happens: When I start MapTool in step 5 I can see the revealed FOW but when I start the server in step 6, the revealed FOW vanishes and the player can't see anything.

Is this behaviour by design or are we just not able to use the right settings for FOW and sight?

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Azhrei
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Re: Remember revealed fog of war

Post by Azhrei »

Yes, it's by design. Without the server running you can't count on things like "individual FOW" or other options that have checkboxes to control them when you start the server.

There's a page on the wiki that discusses the various options on that dialog. The main page links to Introduction to Game Hosting where you can find more info. (Looks like a couple of screenshots are out of date, though.)

alaundo
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Re: Remember revealed fog of war

Post by alaundo »

So... is there anything we can do to be able to use individual FOW as well as vision / sight when the server starts?

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Azhrei
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Re: Remember revealed fog of war

Post by Azhrei »

Yeah, follow the instructions on the page I linked to. ;)

I do notice that not all checkboxes are described there, but each one should have a tooltip that gives the basics.

(Can someone update the wiki page? Some screenshots would be nice too. Sorry to bug someone else, but I've got a bunch of stuff on my plate right now.)

Akodo Makama
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Re: Remember revealed fog of war

Post by Akodo Makama »

Azhrei wrote:I don't remember, but isn't FOW based on the token and not the player?


It is saved on-token, but strict token ownership would mean that the 'new' player didn't own any tokens with vision, and as such, couldn't see anything.

The steps in Vetinari's last post don't mention any players trying to log in after restarting the server. That could have the same effect as having the wrong-named players logged in.

Starayo
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Re: Remember revealed fog of war

Post by Starayo »

Is this really by design?

The last major game I played with my friends with these same settings last year or the year before, I think, back on b87, we had no issues with the vision. When players started the game they would have vision of their tokens and the revealed vision persisted between sessions. That game went on for the better part of a year and we never had a complaint about the vision. Fast forward to today and our vision is not persisting between sessions. If a player token is in an area the gm did not explicitly reveal, then they are in a sea of black until they either manage to mouse over their token and move it once or the GM moves it for them, and then they can only see the terrain they reveal from that position and not anything they'd revealed in past sessions.

I mean, it's possible that we are mistaken and that it always behaved this way, since between those games we played in one that did not use player-revealed vision, but it's just causing us so much annoyance at the start of every single session now that I find it hard to believe we just didn't notice it before.

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Azhrei
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Re: Remember revealed fog of war

Post by Azhrei »

Starayo wrote:Is this really by design?

Read the entire paragraph:
Azhrei wrote:Without the server running you can't count on things like "individual FOW" or other options that have checkboxes to control them when you start the server.

That's what I was referring to.

Starayo wrote:The last major game I played with my friends with these same settings last year or the year before, I think, back on b87,

Well, it's easy to check. Do the same things you're doing now while using b87 and see what happens.

Nothing significant has changed in IndividualFog or similar settings from b87 to b89, so my best guess is a change in the process used to start the server or the process used when people login.

(And since this is the only report I've seen of this problem, it seems that it's not a widespread issue.)

alaundo
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Re: Remember revealed fog of war

Post by alaundo »

Unfortunately, I can't get it to work :cry: Do you have any more specific ideas? The only instructions I found on the site were how to start a server, which I already know. There were also descriptions of all checkboxes, but no more instructions (at least I didn't find them).

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Azhrei
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Re: Remember revealed fog of war

Post by Azhrei »

Vetinari wrote:Hi!

I'm the GM running the MapTool server.

*MapTool 1.3b89
*Java 7.25 (64 bit)
*Windows 7 (64 bit)
*Configuration: Max Mem 1024 MB, Min Mem 64 MB, Stack Size 6 MB
*I can't remember any errors concerning memory usage

Okay, so you're as up to date as possible on the various software components and no memory issues that you can recall. That's all good. :)

When starting a server I choose the following options:
*Players can reveal vision = ON
*Auto Reveal On Movement = ON
*Use Individual Views = ON
*Use Individual FOW = ON

Since you don't mention the other settings, I'm going to figure they're unchecked (off). The screenshot below shows what those options are:

Start Server dialog
Start Server dialog
Screen Shot 2013-07-09 at 12.34.47 PM.png (44.94 KiB) Viewed 1191 times

Let's look at what is (apparently) turned off:
  • Strict token ownership
  • Restricted Player Impersonation
  • Players Receive Campaign Macros
  • Use ToolTips for [] Rolls

(Hm, I just noticed that my descriptive text in that dialog is being cut off! Something else to add to the fix-it list. :))

It's possible that the first one, Strict token ownership, is the issue. Without it, every player owns every token. There are a HUGE number of IF statements scattered throughout the MT code that query that setting to determine how to render the map. I don't specifically recall that it would change the way FOW is done, but could. For example, what does "Individual FOW" mean when all players own all tokens?

Try your test again, this time turn on STO when you start the server. Let's see if the problem occurs again. I've never seen this problem myself, but I always play with STO turned on since I don't want players messing with other players' tokens!

Vetinari
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Re: Remember revealed fog of war

Post by Vetinari »

In fact we use the same Start Server dialog as you do (with the exception of UPnP turned off). I just thought the other settings were irrelevant solving the issue, so I didn't mention them.

Right now I really do think I have found out what the problem was.

I have a campaign file with individually revealed FOW saved to it. Loading the campaign file first and starting the server second, it will overwrite the revealed FOW for every player. Starting the server first and loading the campaign file second, everything is all right.

I need to verify it with the help of one of my players, but in fact this behaviour seems plausible to me.

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