NPCs and vision

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xavram
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NPCs and vision

Post by xavram »

My friend is running a game in 1.4.0.5 and noticed something, wanted to know if there's a way to fix this.

When running the game as the GM, if he mouses over a player's token, he sees the white lines indicating that token's vision. However, when he mouses over an NPC, he does not see the white lines, so its hard for him to see what the NPC can actually see. The only solution we've found is to use Ctrl+I to reveal fog for the NPC, then you can tell what's in the NPC's vision.

Is that normal? and if so, what's the reasoning behind it?

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jfrazierjr
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Re: NPCs and vision

Post by jfrazierjr »

xavram wrote:My friend is running a game in 1.4.0.5 and noticed something, wanted to know if there's a way to fix this.

When running the game as the GM, if he mouses over a player's token, he sees the white lines indicating that token's vision. However, when he mouses over an NPC, he does not see the white lines, so its hard for him to see what the NPC can actually see. The only solution we've found is to use Ctrl+I to reveal fog for the NPC, then you can tell what's in the NPC's vision.

Is that normal? and if so, what's the reasoning behind it?

Yes... it's a performance optimization. The more things the renderer has to go through, the long it takes. Add a few hundred NPC tokens(which are anything NOT PC's!!!) and the render time gets way too slow.
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Get your Dropbox 2GB via my referral link, and as a bonus, I get an extra 250 MB of space. Even if you don't don't use my link, I still enthusiastically recommend Dropbox..

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JamzTheMan
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Re: NPCs and vision

Post by JamzTheMan »

If you download my fork, I have actually made changes to this. NPC's now reveal vision like PC tokens and the GM can dynamically change his view to see what GM tokens can see vs PC tokens vs NPC tokens vs All tokens...

With that said, NPC tokens SHOULD still show the white outline just like PC tokens, as long as it has vision checked. I just tested this with 1.4.0.5.

This is why I made the changes I did. It was not much of a performance hit, the vision is already being calculated, just FoW history was not being shown/saved.
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jfrazierjr
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Re: NPCs and vision

Post by jfrazierjr »

JamzTheMan wrote:If you download my fork, I have actually made changes to this. NPC's now reveal vision like PC tokens and the GM can dynamically change his view to see what GM tokens can see vs PC tokens vs NPC tokens vs All tokens...

With that said, NPC tokens SHOULD still show the white outline just like PC tokens, as long as it has vision checked. I just tested this with 1.4.0.5.

This is why I made the changes I did. It was not much of a performance hit, the vision is already being calculated, just FoW history was not being shown/saved.


Wait... I seem to remember the white lines on NPC's also as you noted, but the OP said his friend does not see the white lines, unless I misunderstood. And you are right, I guess I was thinking about revealing FOW, not so much the white lines of what they can currently see. Are you saying your NPC's reveal FOW now or am I not understanding?
I save all my Campaign Files to DropBox. Not only can I access a campaign file from pretty much any OS that will run Maptool(Win,OSX, linux), but each file is versioned, so if something goes crazy wild, I can always roll back to a previous version of the same file.

Get your Dropbox 2GB via my referral link, and as a bonus, I get an extra 250 MB of space. Even if you don't don't use my link, I still enthusiastically recommend Dropbox..

xavram
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Re: NPCs and vision

Post by xavram »

Hmmm, I'm going to have to go look and see what he's doing, because I just double checked on my system and I see the white lines for an NPC's vision...when Fog is revealed. Maybe that was his problem, maybe fog hadn't been revealed for the NPC (which would effectively make it "blind", so no white lines).

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JamzTheMan
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Re: NPCs and vision

Post by JamzTheMan »

jfrazierjr wrote:
JamzTheMan wrote:If you download my fork, I have actually made changes to this. NPC's now reveal vision like PC tokens and the GM can dynamically change his view to see what GM tokens can see vs PC tokens vs NPC tokens vs All tokens...

With that said, NPC tokens SHOULD still show the white outline just like PC tokens, as long as it has vision checked. I just tested this with 1.4.0.5.

This is why I made the changes I did. It was not much of a performance hit, the vision is already being calculated, just FoW history was not being shown/saved.


Wait... I seem to remember the white lines on NPC's also as you noted, but the OP said his friend does not see the white lines, unless I misunderstood. And you are right, I guess I was thinking about revealing FOW, not so much the white lines of what they can currently see. Are you saying your NPC's reveal FOW now or am I not understanding?


Yep, I have NPC's revealing FoW. What a client sees is based on ownership now. The buttons are ME, PC, NPC, All, which shows exposed FoW based on:

ME: Show me only what MY tokens can see (tokens who's ownership is explicitly set to you, unless you are GM in which case, show me tokens that have NO ownership)
PC: Show me all PC tokens that either I own or are owned by all
NPC: Show me NPC tokens that either I own are owned by all
All: Show me PC & NPC tokens that either I own are owned by all

If server is set to Expose FoW on movement, and you move an NPC that you own (like a cohort or summoned creature) it exposed FoW for that token.
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PinkRose
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Re: NPCs and vision

Post by PinkRose »

https://github.com/RPTools/maptool/issues/187

So, I read the Github, but I'm not a developer, so I don't understand if this is being fixed.
Right now, an NPC token has to have "Have Sight" unchecked for it not to auto-reveal FoW.
But that means I, as the DM, can't see what an NPC can see.
I read that it has changed for reasons, but I'm firmly in the camp that it should be changed back.
Thanks.
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taustinoc
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Re: NPCs and vision

Post by taustinoc »

The easiest workaround, to my thinking, is to use an onTokenMove macro on a library token to expose FOW. That way, you can look for whether it's a PC or NPC, or even add a property to flag whether or not it should expose FOW. The drawback is that it only does the expose at the end point, easiest may not be best.

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jfrazierjr
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Re: NPCs and vision

Post by jfrazierjr »

taustinoc wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:35 pm
The easiest workaround, to my thinking, is to use an onTokenMove macro on a library token to expose FOW. That way, you can look for whether it's a PC or NPC, or even add a property to flag whether or not it should expose FOW. The drawback is that it only does the expose at the end point, easiest may not be best.
Unless this changed, this won't work either. onTokenMove, as I originally built it was meant only for PC's explicitly, on purpose(performance optimization). The real underlying issue is we don't really have enough types of things in the current maptool coding, unless something changed since I have been away. I know before 1.4 started there was some talk about having some addition token types, was that something that changed?
I save all my Campaign Files to DropBox. Not only can I access a campaign file from pretty much any OS that will run Maptool(Win,OSX, linux), but each file is versioned, so if something goes crazy wild, I can always roll back to a previous version of the same file.

Get your Dropbox 2GB via my referral link, and as a bonus, I get an extra 250 MB of space. Even if you don't don't use my link, I still enthusiastically recommend Dropbox..

taustinoc
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Re: NPCs and vision

Post by taustinoc »

It has apparently been changed. The Wiki explicitly says "any token on the token layer," and testing has shown this to be correct (in 1.5.3).

Merudo
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Re: NPCs and vision

Post by Merudo »

JamzTheMan wrote:
Fri Apr 28, 2017 1:10 am
The buttons are ME, PC, NPC, All, which shows exposed FoW based on:

ME: Show me only what MY tokens can see (tokens who's ownership is explicitly set to you, unless you are GM in which case, show me tokens that have NO ownership)
PC: Show me all PC tokens that either I own or are owned by all
NPC: Show me NPC tokens that either I own are owned by all
All: Show me PC & NPC tokens that either I own are owned by all
On 1.5.3, this only seems to be working for the GM and not for the players. As a player, I get the same vision with all 4 buttons.

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Re: NPCs and vision

Post by Phergus »

As far as I know, those were meant to be GM only tools and probably only apply with IFoW.

Merudo
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Re: NPCs and vision

Post by Merudo »

Phergus wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:48 am
As far as I know, those were meant to be GM only tools and probably only apply with IFoW.
The tooltip for the first FoW button says:
Show FoW for Tokens you explicitly own. IF you are a GM, you will also see any tokens that have no ownership set.
This implies the button does something for players as well.

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Re: NPCs and vision

Post by Phergus »

Yup, but as you saw, they don't really do anything for players.

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Re: NPCs and vision

Post by Full Bleed »

Phergus wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:48 am
As far as I know, those were meant to be GM only tools and probably only apply with IFoW.
Misleading tool-tips aside, why not hide the buttons for PC's then?
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