Unleash the potential of MapTool, make it a creation powerhouse foremost.

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Soulblazer
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Unleash the potential of MapTool, make it a creation powerhouse foremost.

Post by Soulblazer »

I've only signed up today, but I've used MapTool for a long time, on and off.
I won't stop using it any time soon, but one thing over the years has always sit not well with me...which is how bad MapTools is for actually creating maps.
It's super awkward and clunky, and maybe that should be fixed with everything else feature frozen. It's already a good virtual tabletop, but it's a horrible map making tool, at least in my opinion.

There will be some suggestions to make it better and, once more, in my opinion, this should be ultra super duper alpha omega highest priority with not a single nibble of new code being thought about for any other features (bugfixes nonwithstanding, of course)
I will look superficially overdramatic in my wording, in the hope that the gravitas of these things will come across properly, but in fact, I will be understating everything by graham numbers worth of magnitude. An appeal to the good core of the developers, a plea for help and succor, salvation that their talent can bring...
A thing I am completely convinced is possible.

Anyway.
Drawing explorer. Complete garbage, might as well not even exist in its current form, an affront against humanity and every femtosecond it remains in this vile state should be considered a crime against users. It must be improved.

Drawing tools. Not complete garbage, but the brush detail system is. There must be a way to set brushes from browsing the asset library. Right click, set as brush/filling. Having to click on the swatch, then get a clunky duplication of the asset browser is simply horrid.

Modeling geometry. Not complete garbage, but can be vastly improved. Change the approach from mapping with image tiles, to mapping with metadata and intent.
What I mean with that. Instead of dragging in 5 tokens of wall, and aligning it together via grid or manually. Allow for the creation of 'geometry of intent'.
A wall object, not a wall graphic. Then, once that object is on the map, select a texture or token there. If it is not to ones liking, no worries. The wall geometry itself will remain, that's the important bit after all, but the skinning of it does.
Have it 'aligned' for good measure so that the texture selected for it rotates (for added creativity)
Apply this concept to floors too, and even if you only implemented these two 'intent' geometries, that would make playing with looks for essential map features a lot easier.
It would also solve the problem of assets that are married to tile sizes.

In fact, this and the drawing tools could solve this in one related go.

By improving the usability of the drawing tools, allowing better editing of the drawn shapes, then that 'intent based' feature is almost a freebie.
But, at this point, the drawing explorer is hot garbage, whoopdee doo, you can group the shapes and set a name, but you can't (unless I'm just not seeing it) change the textures and/or vertices... pointless.

Anyway, going with the intent again. An approach like that can make blueprints a thing, too.
Instead of working with images, you can draw the geometry of intent, since it's basically just (meta)data. Save these constructs to the asset library, and then you have walkways, hallways, byways, highways, caves, temples, all modeled in intent, with the details still adjustable after they are being plopped down.

Add symbiosis with things like bucket fill and the like, and you could quickly repaint swathes of terrain and especially buildings.

This would give way to so much usability, especially with a live preview of a blueprint, where an artist can take a modeled temple or just a house, paint in the walls, and then select all regions with 'window' intent and click on a window texture (which, again, if the intent has alignment for rotation built in) and ALL the windows will change to the new texture, with the correct rotation and stretched or tiled over the metadata framework.

As a cherry on top, this could also aid in the creation of vision blocking geometry, etc.
So, yeah.


I hope my dramatism didn't offend too much, but it's easy to just zone out, so to speak when some extreme measure might be better.
Everything I said is said while keeping the fact that contributors are doing it for free and for the good of the people, etc, that is not the reason for the dramatism.
The dramatism is to desperately plea to not put a single second further into keeping the old system alive, as cherished and thankful everyone should be (myself included) but embracing the notion that the old ways are holding MapTool back.
It should be the Krita or Blender of RPG mapmaking, but ...as it is, it ain't that. It's not crap, it's usable, it's powerful, it's a great VTT, a great diceroller, etc.

But....mapping, dude...being creative with it is such a slog...
Give the (normie) creative types wings too...oh beloved milennium falcon of virtual tabletopping.

Soulblazer
Kobold
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Re: Unleash the potential of MapTool, make it a creation powerhouse foremost.

Post by Soulblazer »

In fact, even though I am bad at Java, I'm going to try and lead by example and implement a new placeable shape, or something, that can be tied to a 'tileset' to kickstart things off.

Think of it as a self contained 'map' inside the map.
First iteration will be a simple placeable square/rectangle, that contains cells. These cells can be pointed at cells in an image tileset.
You know, like in those old roguelikes.
XXXXXXX=XXXXX
[email protected]
XXXX=XXXXXXXX
X...............X
X...............X
X...............X
XXXXXXXXXXXXX

X represents a wall, and the user can choose a tile, or an automatically picked (either randomly or based on some specified selection algorithm) tiles
. is ground
= is a door

You get the idea.

Contain this in a placeable container, and that should be a decent base for 'skinnable', albeit chunky, square grid houses.

Then maybe go from there, make it less griddy, make it more comfortable. With the ultimate goal of being able to plop down entire house rows, streets, forests, etc in these containers.
Bim bang bongo, actual mapping in maptool that hopefully speeds things up.

....but of course...first it needs to be implemented.
I'm gonna hack on it. If you don't, maybe think further along the notions and maybe we can all come up with something that doesn't suck.
And yes, I know, right now, at this very moment, you can do anything with MapTool, you're adapted to it's workings.
But, once again, they are clunky. Let's not make em clunky.

Edit: Nevermind for now. gradle isn't cooperating, and openJDK16 is not really available for my distro :P
Freaking Java... always something with that ...

Soulblazer
Kobold
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Re: Unleash the potential of MapTool, make it a creation powerhouse foremost.

Post by Soulblazer »

I have gotten OpenJDK 16 to run on my Linux distro, and I have learned that the Draw Explorer is not as bad as I thought, functionality wise, it was merely not conveying it's capabilities well (to me, anyway)

Right clicking in it, and choosing get or set properties, actually sets the ColorPickers variables to the ones used in the drawn object, or updates the drawn object with the current colorpicker variables.

Since right clicking to set the name opened a dedicated popup, I always figured the set and get properties from the draw explorers context menu did NOTHING since every time I fiddled with it, I didn't change the brushes, so clicking "set properties" obviously changed NOTHING with no feedback, and getting properties, again, didn't actually change the settings since...I didn't change them.

Anyway.

With that out of the way, I have started to implement some of the things I want to see.
What is already done is setting a background texture for the color picker by right clicking an asset in the asset browser, intead of going through the colorpicker->color chooser->going to texture tab->scrolling through that thing.

It was super easy, too.

Code: Select all

 menu.add(
                  new JMenuItem(
                      new AbstractAction() {
                        {
                          putValue(NAME, "Set as Background"); //to be internationalized
                        }

                        public void actionPerformed(ActionEvent e) {
                            colorPicker.setBackgroundPaint(new AssetPaint(panel.getAsset(index)));
                        }
                      }));

Why would that not be in the functionality ,but a 'new map' action... am I just a unicorn and do most people right click assets in the assets browser with the intent of making a new map out of that single asset as a background?

Maybe. But I think setting it as a texture to draw with...has it's uses too...

P.S.:
Next up, I think I'll try and jam a new tab into the asset browser for painting presets, where one can save colorpicker parameters for simple retrieval and editing.
Later on, that's where 'smart painting' will go too. You know, draw a freehand shape and it gets intelligently filled with terrain, like forests that are dense in the middle with sparser trees on the outside, etc? That kinda stuff.

Maptool should be good at mapping...

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Full Bleed
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Re: Unleash the potential of MapTool, make it a creation powerhouse foremost.

Post by Full Bleed »

I agree that Maptool could be a better "Map Maker", BUT...

There really are a lot of really great map makers out there already and years of development could go into MT map making development and it would still fall short of most of these.

Full disclosure, I'm ripping this list straight from a roll20 resource page:
Online Mapmaking Tools
Mapper RPG - Battle map editor with large sprites collection
INKARNATE - Online map making tool
Dave's Mapper - fantasy and sci-fi map creator
Donjon - both Dungeon map and general stuff generator (encounters, towns, calendars, NPC, traps, treasures...)
DunGen - free and high resolution Dungeon Generator, creates maps at 70px per tile and under 5mb to import directly into Roll20. Can now automatically generate Dynamic Lighting!
DungeonFog- Vector-based online mapmaker (free & premium) shareable maps & export for Roll20
Dungeon Painter Online -by Pyromancer
GM Friend - Hex Map Making Tool with subhexes and random generation
HexTML - hex map maker with submaps
itch.io Medieval Fantasy City Generator dynamic city map generator
Mipui - simple and fast grid-based mapper
RPG MAP EDITOR II by deepnight
Tiamat The Tile Mapper
5 Free Online Room Design Software - useful for modern games

Mapmaking Software

Worldographer Generate or create from scratch world/kingdom maps, city/village maps, and dungeon/battlemat maps.
Campaign Cartographer 3 Windows mapmaking software
WonderDraft Beautiful map-making software for any x64 operating system (Windows 10, linux, MacOSX)
Arcane Mapper Steam
Dungeon Painter Studio Steam
Illwinter's Floorplan Generator Steam
MapForge - Windows/MacOS mapmaking software
misc list of other mapping software
GIMP - GNU Image Manipulation Program - free alternative to PhotoShop
Mapping with Gimp - Guide for making maps with GIMP
And that list seems to have, inexplicably, left off Dungeondraft, Master's Toolkit, and Photoshop.

So, by all means, please improve MT's map-making and put in detailed and targeted feature requests on the MT Git (then cross your fingers and hope some dev is as interested in the idea as you are!)

But, MT is first and foremost a VTT and I suspect that there is a near negative chance that development in that arena is going to take a back seat to something that has so many other/better options available. That said, I think you'd have your best success with anything that can be sold as significantly improving improvisational map-making for "in-session, on-the-fly" creations as that is more closely related to MT's primary mission and development focus.

At any rate, good luck!
Maptool is the Millennium Falcon of VTT's -- "She may not look like much, but she's got it where it counts."

Soulblazer
Kobold
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Re: Unleash the potential of MapTool, make it a creation powerhouse foremost.

Post by Soulblazer »

Thanks, at the very least I will make Maptool better for myself.
I can always fork it, too (unless I've overlooked some license)

If MapTool is not a tool to make maps, but to be a VTT, then why is it named MapTool?
OpenVTT, bam blam balam! Now your name is apt.
(Open)VirtualRPGTable
A bit of a mouthful, but again, more truthful.

MapTool?
That tool better be for creating maps, or mapping something, but mapping something means creating maps, so ...yeah.

That said. Already have extended the asset panel a bit, a stub, a skeleton for BrushPresets is already in. It will take some time until I grok the codebase, but I'm pecking away at it.

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Full Bleed
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Re: Unleash the potential of MapTool, make it a creation powerhouse foremost.

Post by Full Bleed »

Soulblazer wrote:
Sat Oct 02, 2021 10:19 am
If MapTool is not a tool to make maps, but to be a VTT, then why is it named MapTool?
Maybe because it's a tool to make playing games on "maps" easier?

Milwauke Tools makes great tools, but none of them make Milwauke.
I have many Hand Tools, but they don't make very good hands.
I use my Multi-Tool several times a week. I still have yet to make a Multi with it, though.
Northern Tool is another great tool company. Why don't they make Northern's?
I also have lots of Power Tools, too. But for some reason they use more power than they make.

I could probably do that all night...

The things MT allows you to do on and with maps is extensive. It is, indeed, a very dynamic tool to use with maps and games that rely on them.

It's not called "MapMaker" or "MapBuiilder" or "MapCreator".

At any rate, it's just a name. The Windows OS isn't made of glass. The Chrome browser isn't metal. And Hamburger's aren't made of Ham. I think Maptool, by comparison, it too accurately named. ;)

MT is, and always has, been in a class of software popularly known as a Virtual Tabletop... and many of them have no map making capabilities at all. In that regard, MT is far better than most. At any rate, I look forward to seeing your contributions to MT. There is always room for improvement and users who want to see MT do something that's particularly important to them have, historically, made great contributions to the software!
Maptool is the Millennium Falcon of VTT's -- "She may not look like much, but she's got it where it counts."

Soulblazer
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Re: Unleash the potential of MapTool, make it a creation powerhouse foremost.

Post by Soulblazer »

Full Bleed wrote:
Sun Oct 03, 2021 12:13 am
Soulblazer wrote:
Sat Oct 02, 2021 10:19 am
If MapTool is not a tool to make maps, but to be a VTT, then why is it named MapTool?
Maybe because it's a tool to make playing games on "maps" easier?

Milwauke Tools makes great tools, but none of them make Milwauke.
I have many Hand Tools, but they don't make very good hands.
I use my Multi-Tool several times a week. I still have yet to make a Multi with it, though.
Northern Tool is another great tool company. Why don't they make Northern's?
I also have lots of Power Tools, too. But for some reason they use more power than they make.

I could probably do that all night...

The things MT allows you to do on and with maps is extensive. It is, indeed, a very dynamic tool to use with maps and games that rely on them.

It's not called "MapMaker" or "MapBuiilder" or "MapCreator".

At any rate, it's just a name. The Windows OS isn't made of glass. The Chrome browser isn't metal. And Hamburger's aren't made of Ham. I think Maptool, by comparison, it too accurately named. ;)

MT is, and always has, been in a class of software popularly known as a Virtual Tabletop... and many of them have no map making capabilities at all. In that regard, MT is far better than most. At any rate, I look forward to seeing your contributions to MT. There is always room for improvement and users who want to see MT do something that's particularly important to them have, historically, made great contributions to the software!
Milwaukee Tools are a brand that makes tools, tools they don't call "milwaukee tool", but whatever descriptive name they can give them, like "drill" or "stapler" (don't actually know if they make staplers, but whatever) or someone would indeed be puzzled by its function.
RpTools is the Milwaukee Tool equivalent here. And MapTool is the product, same as TokenTool, etc. So, no idea why you're trying to be smarmy in this dishonest way.

But even if we went by your BS, why would their inept naming scheme in that circumstance make MapTool being subpar at mapping any better?
If Bill Gates jumps off a bridge, are you gonna do it too? Rethorical question, really. After this kind of dishonest, smarmy BS, I really don't want any more input from you.

I think I'll fork MapTool and override or amend the code of conduct to enable free and unfettered discrimination of the likes of you.

Soulblazer
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Re: Unleash the potential of MapTool, make it a creation powerhouse foremost.

Post by Soulblazer »

P.S.:
"Don't let the name fool you", literally first sentence on the homepage.

It's official, the name is misleading.

TokenTool -> Creates tokens
Dice tool -> Creates dice macros
Initiative Tool -> Creates Initiative lists and tracks them

CharacterTool -> The only tool that is mostly management.
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taustinoc
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Re: Unleash the potential of MapTool, make it a creation powerhouse foremost.

Post by taustinoc »

Soulblazer wrote:
Sun Oct 03, 2021 10:06 am
I think I'll fork MapTool
You can call it Mote. That name is, by some mystery, available again.

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Full Bleed
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Re: Unleash the potential of MapTool, make it a creation powerhouse foremost.

Post by Full Bleed »

Soulblazer wrote:
Sun Oct 03, 2021 12:54 pm
"Don't let the name fool you", literally first sentence on the homepage.
That was "literally" half the first sentence on the homepage.
MapTool Homepage wrote: Don’t let the name fool you, MapTool is far more than just maps.
Soulblazer wrote:It's official, the name is misleading.
Few people would categorize something being "far more" than its name as "misleading".

And some might even push back a bit when you make the assertion that it is.

Maybe they should add a "+" to the name. MapTool+. That's all the rage these days.

You also, conveniently, left off the second sentence on the page that sums up exactly what I said above (that for some inexplicable reason seems to have greatly upset you):
MapTool Homepage wrote: While it does include powerful tools for the creation of detailed maps, its primary role is a Virtual Table Top replacing pen, paper, battle mats, and dice.
So, I will repeat the sentiment I posted above: MT has a process whereby if you have a request you put it in Github and hope a Dev will be interested in it. Even better, if you can code and the devs aren't doing what you want, your code contribution will follow in the same footsteps of others who have contributed code that added support for their particular interests. That's the beauty of MT being an Opensource project.

I even offered a suggestion that'd you'd probably be more likely to attract dev support if you could tie your interest into the primary mission or current development focus of MT (you can go to Github and see what's going on now and see the current roadmap.) I don't think spending so much time criticizing the Name (silly), demanding full attention to your interest (funny), calling things you don't like "garbage" (not so funny), and lacing a 10+ feature-request wall-of-text with self-admitted hyperbole and overly-dramatic assertions is the best way to get the support you seemed to want.

As for forking MT... I think that's one of your better ideas. But, as for your plan to "discriminate" against me personally for taking some of your more absurd assertions to task, I'll save you the coding effort and just be sure not to use it (along with the other 208 forks I have no intention of touching.) Seriously. If you're going to make MapTool better than all of those other map-making apps I listed above you really have no time to waste.
Maptool is the Millennium Falcon of VTT's -- "She may not look like much, but she's got it where it counts."

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aliasmask
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Re: Unleash the potential of MapTool, make it a creation powerhouse foremost.

Post by aliasmask »

Okay, let's stop with any personal criticisms. Arguing over the name sounds a bit silly to me, but whatever motivates you to make MapTool a better product is fine with me. But I think this thread has run its course.

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