4E Frameworks (Veggiesama, Deviantnull, Rumble) Comparison?

MapTool campaign files that encapsulate properties, tokens, and macros for a particular ruleset or game world. "Framework" is often abbreviated "FW".

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Which D&D 4E framework do you personally use most of the time?

DeviantNull's
15
33%
Veggiesama's
7
15%
Rumble's
12
26%
Other
5
11%
I use more than one in tandem
2
4%
I do not use a framework at all
5
11%
 
Total votes: 46

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Venatius
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4E Frameworks (Veggiesama, Deviantnull, Rumble) Comparison?

Post by Venatius »

Right off the bat I want to say this is not meant to be a "who's better", a contest, or otherwise in any way facilitate discussion on or even near the level of "X sucks, Y rulez". Anyone who puts in hard work on making a game framework and shares it for others' enjoyment is commendable and deserves, at worst, polite and neutral factual comparison.

So! On the latter note, that's what I'm asking about. I've been wondering if there is anyone out there who have tried out the three aforementioned D&D 4E frameworks (or even just two of them) who could explain the differences between them. I figure this could help people locate the one that's right for their particular needs. I've only used DeviantNull's for my own part, so I can't compare, unfortunately. I still encourage elaboration on its abilities though, since this is meant to be info for everyone, not just me. I would rather it come from someone who can draw contrasts though.

That all being said: What can/does each framework do that the others cannot?

(Note on the poll: I don't know if it's even possible to use more than one framework in tandem. But I also don't know of it being impossible.)

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Jshock
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Re: 4E Frameworks (Veggiesama, Deviantnull, Rumble) Comparison?

Post by Jshock »

Well, I can tell you that there's no reason you can't run more than one framework in tandem; I basically did that with DeviantNull's while I was running a game (I had 1-2 players that wanted to script their own macros). The only thing that can stop you are if both property sets share a property that gets used differently (IE one set is looking for a whole number while the other is looking for a string or something). The other thing that can suck from the GM's end: since the other two players weren't using the sheet, I had to sort of jump out of DN's framework to look at their stats & do secret rolls on them. Wasn't too bad, but I could see where others might find it a PITA.

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StarMan
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Re: 4E Frameworks (Veggiesama, Deviantnull, Rumble) Comparis

Post by StarMan »

Venatius wrote:Right off the bat I want to say this is not meant to be a "who's better", a contest, or otherwise in any way facilitate discussion on or even near the level of "X sucks, Y rulez". Anyone who puts in hard work on making a game framework and shares it for others' enjoyment is commendable and deserves, at worst, polite and neutral factual comparison.


Guilty ... provisionally. I have been accused of Rumble-bashing and "mine's better"-itis on my website (link in epilog below). I am ashamed to admit that assessment is partially fair but that is more rooted in arguments with my former group than anything to do with him personally. I completely agree that as framework creators we are all due respect for our efforts in making MT 4e'ers life a little easier. Rumble is certainly no exception as he was a pioneer in this regard. He used JM's code to build a great import feature and an awesome interface which is why I use it to create tokens for my framework. That really isn't "in tandem" as you say but hope it answers your question.

Unfortunately, my group (and presumably some of my users) don't find his combat management features (i.e. where we spend 90% of our time) anything to write home about. They get the basic job done but not any of the more tricky and laborious aspects of the game like aura handling, XP distribution, 3-D tracking, cascading condition support, etc. This is just our preference and once again nothing personal to him is intended. His framework admirably accomplishes everything defined within his design scope. All I'm saying is that my own design scope is much, much larger as it is meant for Rumble graduates looking for something more powerful.

"polite and neutral factual comparison" is my desire but it is extremely difficult to proactively answer "What can/does each framework do that the others cannot?" without drawing comparisons Rumble loyalists may find unflattering. If there is a more tactful way of saying the MPB has dozens of advanced features Rumble's (and others) do not then I am open to suggestions. This isn't a putdown or arrogance on my part, just a simple fact you can take any way you want. My purpose is to fill a need for the advanced/power users out there rather than discredit Rumble or anyone else.

As I've said on my site, try Rumble, Veggiesama etc and I hope you enjoy whichever you decide to use. Speaking for myself, I hope MT'ers like mine but it doesn't matter if they don't as that was never the original goal. My immediate group are the ones I created it and my website for and we have a blast with it every week. Publishing the MPB here was just an afterthought but if others like it then that's just an added bonus. To answer your original question, please visit my site here.
Last edited by StarMan on Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
StarMan - The MacroPolicebox D&D 4E Framework: Import ANYTHING!

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Venatius
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Re: 4E Frameworks (Veggiesama, Deviantnull, Rumble) Comparis

Post by Venatius »

Interesting, StarMan. This "MPB" framework was completely off my radar until now. It's been a long time since I posted this poll (I've tried Rumble's since), so it's nice to see some activity on it. Thanks for bringing it to my attention and for your diplomatic commentary on it. I'll certainly take a look. Best case scenario? I've got a new framework to favor. Worst case scenario? I've wasted a little time checking something out. So, thank you! I do of course totally understand why you would feel your framework is better. If you didn't, you wouldn't be using it, would you? But I know it can be hard for some people to know precisely what's at risk of sounding vitriolic rather than objective. I run that risk quite often myself.

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StarMan
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Re: 4E Frameworks (Veggiesama, Deviantnull, Rumble) Comparis

Post by StarMan »

Thanks Venatius, it's refreshing to hear from someone who understands where I'm coming from. Happily, the same can be said for my new group so it's all good. Yeah, I would have answered this earlier but only came across it today. I only got on to "the radar" four months ago because up until then I was the only one capable of programming my framework. Now that my Rumble conversion code is working well, anybody (well, any Rumble user that is) could use it so I shrugged and said, "Hey, why not?". If you have any feedback then feel free to give it here.

To elaborate on the tandem question, I'm afraid that won't work with mine. At least not the way JShock describes for the reasons he explains. I use a small portion of Rumble's property set in ways you might not find intuitive. Furthermore, I don't use the get/setProperty functions advocated by the MT gurus as a means for sidestepping the property incompatibility issue. I just found that programming style too verbose and exhausting. Considering portability wasn't a priority, I didn't worry about it. Nevertheless, I would be intrested in knowing if anyone has success integrating DeviantNull (or anything else) with the MPB.

For the heck of it, I tried pasting Rumble's library tokens into an MPB campaign to run his setup routines but things blew up. I suppose the reverse would work since my properties are a subset of his. That is to say you can try pasting my library token (yes, there's only one!) and MPB-only properties into a Rumble campaign and it would probably work. Other than technical curiosity, I don't see the point of this exercise as it would needlessly inflate the MPB token size thereby defeating the purpose.

To answer your main question, no I haven't tried any non-Rumble frameworks but I have read Veggiesama and DeviantNull's docs. Both have interesting ideas, one or two of which I may have (ahem) borrowed. If I get around to doing so I may post here again.
StarMan - The MacroPolicebox D&D 4E Framework: Import ANYTHING!

Jaxom
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Re: 4E Frameworks (Veggiesama, Deviantnull, Rumble) Comparis

Post by Jaxom »

I used to use Veggiesama's Framework when I first started using Maptool, but for some reason I gave Deviantnull's Framework a try and it wound up fitting my campaign style. I've modified DN's Framework a little bit, I recall customizing the health and healing surge bars (Screen Capture Attached). I know I modified a few other things but nothing major that I can remember now.

I've been meaning to try Rumble's Framework but haven't been playing much lately so I just haven't got around to it. Also afraid that I might like it too and want to use it, I have quite a few monsters created in DN's Framework so I've kind of committed myself to using it.

As of yet I don't have players using it on their own computers, I load up one instance of Maptool on my laptop as a Server and then in another session of Maptool I log in to the server and I put that session up on a big screen TV with "Show As Player" enabled (using an HDMI cable - see reason for doing so below), it's basically a big digital battle mat with Fog of War so the players only see what their characters can see on the map and on my own laptop screen I can see everything.

In my opinion I don't think anyone's Framework is better, I think it's a matter of trying them all and seeing which one fits your game style and which one fits the style of each of your players.

HDMI Cable... I found a cool website that has a ton of sounds that you can play right from the site without downloading (some links below). I tend to pick a couple and sometimes play them at the same time and loop them to play continuously in the background. It adds some depth to the game. I've found monster and slamming sounds that can make the players jump if played at the right moment.
http://www.freesound.org
Good ones to play together
http://www.freesound.org/people/be-steele/sounds/134809/ Creepy ambient background sound
http://www.freesound.org/people/Setuniman/sounds/134695/ When waiting on someone to perform an action

Put these on top of a thunderstorm sound from the site and add even more depth to a game session.
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Jaxom
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Re: 4E Frameworks (Veggiesama, Deviantnull, Rumble) Comparis

Post by Jaxom »

Spending some time today to look at StarMan's Framework.

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StarMan
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Re: 4E Frameworks (Veggiesama, Deviantnull, Rumble) Comparis

Post by StarMan »

Hope ya like it! Sorry about the annoying pop-up on every page of the site. That only started a week ago or so. If I get some time I'm gonna move it to a different provider ...
StarMan - The MacroPolicebox D&D 4E Framework: Import ANYTHING!

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