eBook Readers

[Phergus]

My girlfriend wants the reader for weight (one handed) battery, price, and size. She's also a voracious reader and we figure it should pay for itself within 6 months.

Really? Does she normally buy hardbound books?

I read 50+ SciFi/Fantasy/Horror books a year. Based on the book prices I've seen on both Amazon and Barnes & Noble I can't see either a Kindle or Nook ever saving me money. Their book prices are typically as much or more than the equivalent paperback that I buy now and I get a discount on them at the local B&N store.

Not to mention the whole not being able to give my books to friends, or donate them, or trade them in at a used book store.

[Azhrei]

And you tried this with Acrobat 8? It's pretty well-known that Acrobat 9 has screwed up the copy/paste of images even when the PDF uses "layered layout". James Jacobs has apologized already for a couple of products that went out with the layering messed up and they corrected those and made the updated ones available in the MyDownloads area of their site.

I've been using Acrobat 9 for a good awhile now though I've recently trashed it when I upgraded to CS5. I still don't know why Paizo doesn't just unlock the text layers. What's the point of having great maps with DM text all over it? Especially in a Map Folio.

As I said, every PDF I have that came from them does images separate from text. They had one or two that something got screwed up on in pre-production and they had to redo the PDFs, but those were exceptions.

To reiterate: they DO separate text from images.

Perhaps you'd like to hear it from Vic Wertz, their production technical director? http://paizo.com/store/downloads/pathfi ... s&page=1#8

In most PDF viewers—but sadly not Adobe Reader 9 or newer—you can select and extract just the map backgrounds, without the tags. Note that in Adobe Reader 8 or older, you may have to ctrl-click (Windows) or option-click (Macs) to select some maps.

And later in the same discussion:

http://paizo.com/store/downloads/pathfi ... &page=1#16

Early on, some of our cartographers were submitting flattened maps—that is to say, by the time we got them, they no longer had separate layers, so it's impossible for us (or you) to separate the text from the art. We've been requiring cartographers to provide layered maps for quite some time now, though, so you shouldn't see this in newer products.

I'll re-download the file, but it's not a new Map Folio and it's ridiculous that it would be incompatible with the industry standard PDF reader/editor.

It's also ridiculous to think that a glitch in a product that has already been corrected should generate this much vitriol from you. Was today a particularly bad day at work or something? (And don't get me started on "industry standards". We both know how that will turn out. )

I prefer that it comes out in a non-lossy format like TIFF. Don't suppose it preserves layers when you do this?

I don't know what you're referring to. When I select an image and drag it to the desktop, I get a TIFF image. Does TIFF support layers? I didn't think it did. But if it's important to you I'm certainly willing to try it and let you know...

[Hawke]

My girlfriend wants the reader for weight (one handed) battery, price, and size. She's also a voracious reader and we figure it should pay for itself within 6 months.

Really? Does she normally buy hardbound books?

I read 50+ SciFi/Fantasy/Horror books a year. Based on the book prices I've seen on both Amazon and Barnes & Noble I can't see either a Kindle or Nook ever saving me money. Their book prices are typically as much or more than the equivalent paperback that I buy now and I get a discount on them at the local B&N store.

Not to mention the whole not being able to give my books to friends, or donate them, or trade them in at a used book store.

She's a student, so she's buying lots of stuff and doesn't much control over timing of things. She ends up having to grab hardcover stuff frequently from amazon. I wouldn't suspect her results would be typical, nor would they work out for once she's done with her program.

[Phergus]

She's a student, so she's buying lots of stuff and doesn't much control over timing of things. She ends up having to grab hardcover stuff frequently from amazon. I wouldn't suspect her results would be typical, nor would they work out for once she's done with her program.

Buying hardcover books and especially textbooks would probably give you better opportunities to actually save money. Plus a Nook with a dozen textbooks in it is a whole lot lighter than even one textbook.

I love the idea of e-readers but with the prices for ebooks being not-much-better than for the dead-tree versions it doesn't make economic sense. Throw in the fact that my wife reads the same books that I do and we would be looking at two e-readers and having to deal with being able to move a book from one reader to the other.

[Full Bleed]

It's also ridiculous to think that a glitch in a product that has already been corrected should generate this much vitriol from you. Was today a particularly bad day at work or something?

First, it hasn't been "corrected" for the product I bought as far as I can tell. And it came out well after the Legacy of Fire Map Folio discussion you linked (I'm talking about the CoT Map Folio.)

After hunting down and installing Acrobat 8 (which I will just as quickly remove with a system restore to a pre-install date), I was able to drag out the images. Thank you for the tip. However, though most of the maps did remove the text, some didn't. Some others kept secret doors in place. And 3 of the maps were arbitrarily broken into 6, 11, and 12 pieces respectively... all of which I will have to stitch together and then cut apart appropriately.

I also had to manually rename 54 files because they don't drag out with the appropriate names.

So, again, I hardly feel that the issue is "corrected." And the convenience of buying the map-pack in the first place is significantly lowered with all of this extra work.

Second, what was vitriolic about my response? You think it's acceptable that the editors at Paizo would put out a map-pack that didn't work as expected on Acrobat 9 (let alone Acrobat 9 Professional)? I don't. The good majority of users out there (due to the way Adobe "updates" their software automatically) were likely using it. Heck, it doesn't work in Foxit either (the second most popular PDF reader.) I also think their lack of foresight that someone buying a map-pack wouldn't want DM text all over the maps is pretty sad. I'm a Paizo supporter, but I'm not going to defend their mistakes or half-assed corrections of them. I'll make my opinion known and vote with my dollar.

If there is a particular program or method that users are expected to follow in order to use their products, I believe the onus should be on the company to provide such information *with* their products (particularly if they want return customers.) When someone buys a piece of software, it's customary to tell them what they need in order to use said product. How hard would it have been for them to update their products with a couple paragraphs telling people what software to use and how to use it? Especially when it's suggested that they *not* use the most popular readers if they want to do anything with the PDF other than look at it.

So, again, they *could* have just unlocked the PDF to begin with rather than have people jump through all these hoops. The PDF is essentially "unprotected" anyway if you can go back and do this... it's just most annoying to people who paid for it rather than people who've trolled for cracked versions. It's this type failed "protection" that drives people to piracy.

Speaking of which, I was able to use a trial hack program to open up the first few pages of the folio for use in Acrobat 9 Professional. And, for $50, I could open up the rest.

(And don't get me started on "industry standards". We both know how that will turn out. )

And no, I don't know how an argument on "industry standards" will turn out. It usually comes down to whoever has the biggest... Opinion. Anyway, I think you understood perfectly what I was talking about and have chosen to be argumentative.

Methinks I should be asking if *you* had a bad day.

I prefer that it comes out in a non-lossy format like TIFF. Don't suppose it preserves layers when you do this?

I don't know what you're referring to. When I select an image and drag it to the desktop, I get a TIFF image. Does TIFF support layers? I didn't think it did. But if it's important to you I'm certainly willing to try it and let you know...

Yes, TIFF's support layers. Back in the day, when space was a real premium, I used layered TIFF's with LZW compression in lieu of PSD files because they actually created considerably smaller files. As a result, I still heavily use them (hence my comment about AI having issues with TIFF files.)

That said, I'd be interested to know if Acrobat on the MAC does export layered TIFFs. My guess is that it doesn't (but it would be really cool if it did.) On a PC Acrobat 8 exports the file as BMP's so it doesn't have layers.

[Full Bleed]

I love the idea of e-readers but with the prices for ebooks being not-much-better than for the dead-tree versions it doesn't make economic sense. Throw in the fact that my wife reads the same books that I do and we would be looking at two e-readers and having to deal with being able to move a book from one reader to the other.

I'm with you. Given the retail, production, and distribution savings in e-books I think they are terribly over-priced... especially when you look at the 40+% discounts you can often get for many dead-tree books.

As for ebook sharing... it is worth mentioning that the new Nooks seem to be touting a new "eLend" feature that lets you "Lend eBooks to friends for free." Sounds like a step in the right direction.

[neofax]

I think Paizo does a great job. Why don't we compare them to the largest RPG company WotC. OK, so you cangrab their maps from their server if you have a subscription account. Most maps also have secret doors and DM text. Most maps are directly made from their tile sets using PyMapper. Many maps never even make it to the website. No PDF to even try using Acrobat Reader or a myriad of other software to rip the images out. So, I think Paizo is doing a great job by at least using layers and providing the PDFs so you can extract the maps. But, I truly think this has gotten off topic.

[dorpond]

I coworker showed me the Nook and I asked about the ability to share books. She showed me that the Nook has the ability to loan a book to another user, for 14 days. Most avid readers can finish a book in 14 days.

So with that said, the e-reader companies are seeing the importance of being able to share purchased books.

What I hate, is that I have 3 full books shelves at home and boxes in the basement. I never re-read the books so they just take up all my space. That is where e-readers will be welcomed in my eyes.

But what happens when a compay like Amazon folds? do you lose those purchases forever? That is my only concern. We can keep real books for generations but what business lasts long nowadays?

[Notsonoble]

This is why all my e-books are BAEN titles, or manually stripped of DRM...

Also, Baen's ebooks are 15/mo for 6 books (admittedly a few will be older books, and have perphaps shown up in a previous webscription...)

[Orchard]

This is why all my e-books are BAEN titles, or manually stripped of DRM...

Also, Baen's ebooks are 15/mo for 6 books (admittedly a few will be older books, and have perphaps shown up in a previous webscription...)

Not only that, a Baen also releases a LOT of their books with NO DRM for free.

It's partly up to the author, but honestly, I haven't seen nearly the responsibility level from anyone else as from Baen. They are by far my favorite publisher, even if not all my favorite authors are on Baen.

[Full Bleed]

I think Paizo does a great job. Why don't we compare them to the largest RPG company WotC.

I'd rather compare Paizo to someone like 0one's/SJG. WotC is anti-PDF so I don't expect support from them. Check out the basic structure of this PDF: http://e23.sjgames.com/item.html?id=BEW000

You can remove text, items in the rooms, remove the grid, place a grid or hex, etc. And that's just the tip of the iceberg of what Paizo could do with a PDF.

[Azhrei]

After hunting down and installing Acrobat 8 (which I will just as quickly remove with a system restore to a pre-install date), I was able to drag out the images. Thank you for the tip. However, though most of the maps did remove the text, some didn't. Some others kept secret doors in place. And 3 of the maps were arbitrarily broken into 6, 11, and 12 pieces respectively... all of which I will have to stitch together and then cut apart appropriately.

As I quoted from Vic, on some of the early maps they original artwork wasn't separated. They're requiring layered artwork from their artists going forward. Not much can be done about the older stuff though. I suppose you could try contacting the artist...?

I also had to manually rename 54 files because they don't drag out with the appropriate names.

Hm. Usually I need to slice-n-dice the maps anyway as they will have a single image on the page that I need to cut apart in GIMP. So the filename doesn't bug me much. But it would be nice to have the filename be the page number at a minimum. It doesn't look like Acrobat has any way to specify that as a preference though. Maybe a different viewer?

You think it's acceptable that the editors at Paizo would put out a map-pack that didn't work as expected on Acrobat 9 (let alone Acrobat 9 Professional)? I don't.

I don't think they ever claimed that their PDF maps were meant to do what you expected them to do, so I don't blame them for you being upset.

It looks like Acrobat 9 Pro has all of the limitations of Acrobat Reader 8 regarding image selection, i.e. I can't select images and copy them out. (I get "PDEObject reference error".) The fact that it works in Acro8 and not in Acro9 leads me to believe that Adobe unilaterally decided that users don't need that feature/capability. This doesn't make me upset at Paizo, but at Adobe. (They're not any worse -- nor any better -- than Microsoft, Apple, or anyone else in this regard.)

The good majority of users out there (due to the way Adobe "updates" their software automatically) were likely using it.

That says more about Adobe than it does about Paizo.

I also think their lack of foresight that someone buying a map-pack wouldn't want DM text all over the maps is pretty sad.

Agreed. Vic didn't say if they initially were concerned about from a business perspective or just didn't think of it in advance.

If there is a particular program or method that users are expected to follow in order to use their products, I believe the onus should be on the company to provide such information *with* their products (particularly if they want return customers.)

Did they claim that images could be extracted without text? Which product did they say to use to accomplish that?

(My belief is that they never made that claim.)

So, again, they *could* have just unlocked the PDF to begin with rather than have people jump through all these hoops.

I don't think it had anything to do with "unlocking it". Vic said they did not have images with separate layers for some of the stuff. I can't believe they don't have it for CoT maps, though.

Speaking of which, I was able to use a trial hack program to open up the first few pages of the folio for use in Acrobat 9 Professional. And, for $50, I could open up the rest.

Hm. I can read all of the AP books in Acro8-Acro9Pro without any problem. I guess the map folios were put together differently... But I don't buy those 'cuz I've got the AP itself.

Methinks I should be asking if *you* had a bad day.

Heh. Whatever.

Yes, TIFF's support layers. Back in the day, when space was a real premium, I used layered TIFF's with LZW compression in lieu of PSD files because they actually created considerably smaller files. As a result, I still heavily use them (hence my comment about AI having issues with TIFF files.)

That said, I'd be interested to know if Acrobat on the MAC does export layered TIFFs. My guess is that it doesn't (but it would be really cool if it did.) On a PC Acrobat 8 exports the file as BMP's so it doesn't have layers.

When I drag the image from Acro8 to the desktop it creates a single-layer TIFF with no text as reported by GIMP (GIMP properties shown below; copied from Chap6 of the CotCT AP). I can't find any way to copy it out of Acro9 or Acro9Pro.

[Azhrei]

You can remove text, items in the rooms, remove the grid, place a grid or hex, etc. And that's just the tip of the iceberg of what Paizo could do with a PDF.

Yeah, that's pretty cool. I think I might send that link to Vic and ask him to take a look and see what Paizo can do.

How are layers created in Acrobat? I'm sure the maps must come in PSD format (or similar) so can the PSD be directly imported? I'm thinking they're more likely to do this if it doesn't overly complicate their existing work flow...

[Full Bleed]

You think it's acceptable that the editors at Paizo would put out a map-pack that didn't work as expected on Acrobat 9 (let alone Acrobat 9 Professional)? I don't.

I don't think they ever claimed that their PDF maps were meant to do what you expected them to do, so I don't blame them for you being upset.

Some time ago I'd read that you could export the maps without text several places on their site. I may have even seen parts of the earlier discussion in the link you posted earlier. I didn't do a full on investigation into the matter and expected it to work with Acro9 or Foxit. It didn't. And given what you quoted me from the Map Folio that came before it, I think it's pretty clear that they intended the maps to be exportable without text in the future. When they realized they weren't all they had to do was unlock the text layer so people with Acro9 and Foxit could either turn it off (or delete the text) and snapshot the screen (Foxit) or export with the text off (Acro 9.) I can select the text in Acro 9 Pro, I just can't delete it. It's a permissions thing.

Or they could have bundled a Player Friendly version without text. Could have done a lot of things they didn't. I really don't see the point of buying the map folio otherwise.

Did they claim that images could be extracted without text? Which product did they say to use to accomplish that?

The very thread you linked talked about extracting the maps without text and even provided a method for that particular folio. And I know I saw and read about it elsewhere. Given that advice was put on the forum, they could have easily put a page in the new PDF folio: "Want to extract the maps without text? Here are some suggestions." It would have cost nothing for them to add a page to the PDF.

But I don't buy those 'cuz I've got the AP itself.

I wanted the better map of Westcrown... (it *is* a lot better) and the way I read the sales text (I think they've since changed it), I thought they had actually redone some of the other maps and provided some new ones. Some of the stuff in the first AP (like the sewer encounter maps) were a little weak, so I was hoping that with more time they would give us some better encounter areas. Plus, I thought I'd save myself the trouble of editing out the DM text from the AP maps (like i had to do in the first AP.) That time savings would have easily been worth the price of admission... or so I thought.


Anyway, I've made my case and I'm wiser for it. I won't be buying any more of Paizo's Map Folios anytime soon.

[Full Bleed]

I think I might send that link to Vic and ask him to take a look and see what Paizo can do.

James Jacob responds to others with my same concerns at the end to the CoT Map Folio thread: http://paizo.com/store/downloads/pathfi ... age=3#tabs

Doesn't sounds too likely that they would be willing to put in the work to set up the PDF appropriately.

How are layers created in Acrobat? I'm sure the maps must come in PSD format (or similar) so can the PSD be directly imported? I'm thinking they're more likely to do this if it doesn't overly complicate their existing work flow...

Not sure. I tried exporting a Photoshop PDF file with layers but they (the layers) didn't show in Acrobat 9 Pro. Unfortunately, I don't know much about building uber cool PDF's... but something tells me it's not rocket science.


EDIT: Actually, after playing with it for about 5 minutes it's super simple. It looks like the cartographer would just have to save the various layers of their maps as tiffs or png files with transparency. Then you would start with a background image on a page and import layers on top of it accordingly. Then you can just click the layers off and set them to only print or export when visible. As simple as I see it is now, I'm even more baffled as to why they don't do it.