DND 4.0 vs 3.5

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TheRepoMan
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DND 4.0 vs 3.5

Post by TheRepoMan »

So what are the major differences between 4.0 and 3.5 Dungeons and Dragons? I mean obviously a bajillion little things but I see so much back and forth on which version is better, so what is the major difference?

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Rumble
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Re: DND 4.0 vs 3.5

Post by Rumble »

Really, they're very different games - the differences aren't just a bajillion little things (though there are those) but also some very significant differences in design philosophy, character generation, character progression, emphasis on balance, emphasis on tactical combat, multiclassing, party structure, encounter design, and so forth. I am not sure I could even outline the differences briefly, if you know what I mean.

I make no claim as to which is "better" since I'm not sure that can be objectively stated. But they are strikingly different games.

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patoace
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Re: DND 4.0 vs 3.5

Post by patoace »

If you knew the transition from 2nd to 3rd edition, the changes aren't so dramatic: you still roll a d20 and hope to roll high for nearly every action, you still have skills and skill checks, feats, a unified XP table for all classes and unified modifiers tables for all abilities, and Fortitude, Reflexes, Will scores as defenses, and you still have tactical options and Attacks of Opportunity.

It's the same game as 3rd edition, unless you think only 2nd edition was true D&D.

The main changes were:
Spell system replaced by a power cards system
You can't muticlass (there is a section about it in the rules, but it isn't a real option)
Every character can heal itself via healing surges.

And there are many little more, of course..

Oh, and ROLE playing is strictly forbidden. :twisted:

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Rumble
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Re: DND 4.0 vs 3.5

Post by Rumble »

Well there's two very different answers to the same question: "Yes, they're significantly different" vs. "No they're not." :D

I will just repeat the advice I've heard many times: if you go into 4E expecting to apply 3.X mindset to it, it won't feel right.

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wolph42
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Re: DND 4.0 vs 3.5

Post by wolph42 »

i've played 4E a couple of times (vs 1,2 and 3E many times)... and IMVHO 3E supports roleplaying (with that I mean the non-combat part) better. I know the whole yadayada that ANY system will allow as much rp or not completely depending on the GM and players, been there done that, but again 3E gives way for more versatility, and is thus more complex but will give a broader spectrum within the rules for players and GM to use in rp situations

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aku
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Re: DND 4.0 vs 3.5

Post by aku »

A lot of people HATE the comparison, but the few times i've played 4th, i think it fits: it FEELS more like an MMO combat system, than an RPG.

Now, that may sound strange, since mmo's were born from the womb of RPG's, so to speak, but they computerized things to fit nicely. No longer can your mage decide to cast fireball* every round "just because", because in 4th, fireball* might have a cooldown (or use limitation) of the encounter, so you can only use it once within any given encounter. Fighters, rogues, all the same.

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Natha
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Re: DND 4.0 vs 3.5

Post by Natha »

Bah ... old and worn topic that will lead to useless flamewar.
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wolph42
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Re: DND 4.0 vs 3.5

Post by wolph42 »

Natha wrote:Bah ... old and worn topic that will lead to useless flamewar.


and there you hit the nail on its head. D&D knows no proper flame throwers, sure you have dragons, but that's natural, the real stink of napalm after you've lit your burner is a feeling you only get when you play Warhammer 40k and that's why W40K rules! :mrgreen:

So stop nagging about 1,2,3 or 4 go hardcore!! :twisted:
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Full Bleed
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Re: DND 4.0 vs 3.5

Post by Full Bleed »

Natha wrote:Bah ... old and worn topic that will lead to useless flamewar.

Is there no list of differences compiled anywhere that aren't based on opinion? I agree that these conversations usually devolve into edition wars, but legitimate comparisons can be made.


For example...

Natural Healing in 3.5.

With a full night’s rest (8 hours of sleep or more), you recover 1 hit point per character level. Any significant interruption during your rest prevents you from healing that night.

If you undergo complete bed rest for an entire day and night, you recover twice your character level in hit points.


compared to:

Extended Rest in 4e.

Once per day, you can gain the benefits of an extended rest.

An extended rest is at least 6 hours long.

At the end of an extended rest, you regain any hit points you have lost and any healing surges you have spent.

If anything interrupts your extended rest, such as an attack, add the time spent dealing with the interruption to the total time you need to spend in the extended rest.



So, opinion aside, that is a flat comparison of the core "rest" rules between 3.5 and 4.


For kicks, in AD&D the rule was:

--Heal 1 point a day for 7 days when resting.
--In the second week of complete rest the character gets to add their Con bonus in addition to the 1 pt a day.
--After 4 continuous weeks of rest, the character is restored to full health.


So from 1st edition to 4th a character went from needing (at most) 4 weeks of rest to achieve a complete "natural" heal to only needing 6 hours (regardless of hitpoints.)
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aku
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Re: DND 4.0 vs 3.5

Post by aku »

Full Bleed wrote:
Natha wrote:Bah ... old and worn topic that will lead to useless flamewar.



So from 1st edition to 4th a character went from needing (at most) 4 weeks of rest to achieve a complete "natural" heal to only needing 6 hours (regardless of hitpoints.)



Like i said, more mmo-ish :D

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Natha
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Re: DND 4.0 vs 3.5

Post by Natha »

aku wrote:Like i said, more mmo-ish :D


(I promise myself to not post in this kind of thread anymore but I can't resist ...)

Or more "pulp".
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Full Bleed
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Re: DND 4.0 vs 3.5

Post by Full Bleed »

aku wrote:Like i said, more mmo-ish :D

While I agree, I was actually hoping that someone might be able to point to a document or two that has more straight-forward comparisons between edition game mechanics.

Seeing the 1st to 4th changes in accurate, bite-sized excerpts would be kind of fun.


Another example:

1st Edition Fireball: Range is 100' + 10' per level of caster (three times this distance when outdoor.) 20' radius burst. 1d6 damage per caster level (no limit.) Save for half damage.

2nd Edition Fireball: Range is 10 yards + 10 yards per level. 20' radius burst. 1d6 damage per level (10d6 max.) Save for half damage.

3/3.5 Edition Fireball: Range is 400' + 40' per level. 20' radius burst. 1d6 damage per level (10d6 max.) Save for half damage.

4th Edition Fireball ("affectionately" called a "Firecube"): Range is 20 squares. 7x7 square/cube burst. Attack with an Intelligence vs Reflex roll. Hit and do 3d6 + Intelligence modifier for damage. Miss do half damage.
Last edited by Full Bleed on Wed May 11, 2011 12:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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aku
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Re: DND 4.0 vs 3.5

Post by aku »

Natha wrote:
aku wrote:Like i said, more mmo-ish :D


(I promise myself to not post in this kind of thread anymore but I can't resist ...)

Or more "pulp".


more pulp, less OJ?

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Re: DND 4.0 vs 3.5

Post by Rumble »

aku wrote:
Natha wrote:
aku wrote:Like i said, more mmo-ish :D


(I promise myself to not post in this kind of thread anymore but I can't resist ...)

Or more "pulp".


more pulp, less OJ?



OJ will kill ya.

On point, Magic Missile makes an interesting comparison. I didn't play 3.x or earlier editions, but 4E has had two versions of its own Magic Missile. As I recall from my research into The Old Ways, Magic Missile had always been an auto-hit, 1d4-or-thereabouts spell that can hit multiple targets at higher levels.

Then, in 4E, it became a single target, roll-to-hit (Intelligence vs. Reflex) spell, with a 20 square (100 foot) range, that deal 2d4+Intelligence modifier damage, and could be used at-will.

Then, later in 4E, it became a single-target, auto-hit spell (same range) that deals, IIRC, Intelligence Modifier + a scaling factor flat damage. It can still be used at-will.

Note that the second version was released as errata, so we can infer from that that the first version was in error, and it took them a while to catch it. :wink:

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Full Bleed
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Re: DND 4.0 vs 3.5

Post by Full Bleed »

Rumble wrote:As I recall from my research into The Old Ways, Magic Missile had always been an auto-hit, 1d4-or-thereabouts spell that can hit multiple targets at higher levels.

Magic Missile

1st Edition: Range is 60' + 10' per level (outdoor range is tripled.) Caster gains 1 missile every 2 levels (no limit.) Damage is 1d4+1 per missile. Missiles can not miss. There is no save against them. Multiple missiles can hit multiple targets so long as they are within a 10' square area.

2nd Edition: Range is 60 yards + 10 yards per level. Caster gains 1 missile every 2 levels (max of 5.) Damage is 1d4+1 per missile. Missiles can not miss. There is no save against them. Multiple missiles can hit multiple targets so long as they are within a 10' square area.

3/3.5 Edition: Range is 100' + 10' per level. Caster gains 1 missile every 2 levels (max of 5.) Damage is 1d4+1 per missile. Missiles can not miss. There is no save against them. Multiple missiles can hit multiple targets so long as they are within a 15' of each other.

4th Edition:
Rumble wrote:Then, in 4E, it became a single target, roll-to-hit (Intelligence vs. Reflex) spell, with a 20 square (100 foot) range, that deal 2d4+Intelligence modifier damage, and could be used at-will.

Then, later in 4E, it became a single-target, auto-hit spell (same range) that deals, IIRC, Intelligence Modifier + a scaling factor flat damage. It can still be used at-will.
Maptool is the Millennium Falcon of VTT's -- "She may not look like much, but she's got it where it counts."

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