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BigO
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Post by BigO »

Full Bleed wrote:
BigO wrote:There's something about the mental back-and-forth you can get when debating a topic that I really really enjoy. Granted, it's only fun if both parties can keep from getting personal and angry, but some of the best conversations I've ever had have been with people that I don't agree with at all.


I agree.

But face-to-face discussions on intense issues are almost always more civil than internet debate. People say and "do" stuff on the internet that they'd never do in a f2f argument. These issues *are* very personal. So expecting people to "not take them personally" is ridiculous.


BigO wrote:If you're looking for team building exercises or campfire singing then I would suggest that you start a new thread in the general discussion section for it. If however you'd like to talk about politics then you are in the right thread.


Sorry for caring about the fact that this used to be one of the most pleasant forums to participate in on the net. People knew not to start arguing about things like politics and religion because nothing good comes from it.

This is a community that was galvanized by the love of the project and gaming. Injecting the most divisive elements of our society into the mix is exactly what I'd do if I wanted to come in here and wreck the atmosphere. But if you think that what this community needs is more tension and contentious debate, then by all means, keep stirring the pot.


Dracorat wrote:I couldn't let this one go, sorry.


See how easy it was to draw you back in... even when you knew that you didn't "want to fight"? And I was not even challenging the context of your message. I was not disagreeing with you at all. But it was a good example of how touchy these subjects are when someone feels they can only respond the way you did.


Anyway, I'm done with this thread. I've got more constructive things to spend my time on.

I find this fascinating. So far you're the only one who is getting upset about anything, and your problem doesn't seem to be anyone's particular opinion about the topic, it's the very existence of the thread.

As to your specific statements, even though you have called my opinion ridiculous, accused me of intentionally wrecking the atmosphere, and sarcastically implied that I want contention and tension, I'm going to choose to not take it personally and not get upset. Just like a person should do when discussing politics, or when someone posts a thread with a topic that they don't like.
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Post by tektonik »

as a senior poly sci major I think I should stay out of this one...

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Post by BigO »

Azhrei wrote:I agree that stating an opinion and not trying to force it on someone else is probably fine for this thread. But when it becomes an attempt to make converts out of one's readers, you've gone too far.

My leaning is libertarian. That means that in general I'm fiscally conservative and socially liberal. (That's not exactly right or there wouldn't be a "libertarian" label to begin with!)

I've not seen the conservatives being very "fiscal" lately, at the national level anyway, so I'm turned off of the conservative party. The liberal party wants to spend a lot of money on things that might actually help the country, but I'm worried about where the money will come from. It's easy to say that when we end our occupation of Iraq (note: the war was over years ago) that we'll have plenty of money. But we already have a 9 trillion dollar debt because of that occupation and associated screwups -- I don't want to see the money diverted to something else, I want to see the bills paid off!

I am truly saddened by the state of politics in this country. I am saddened that the parties have managed to so polarize the country into "red" states and "blue" states that no discussion can be had without someone yelling "traitor" to a patriot. I am saddened that when ideas are brought to the table they are shot down by a vocal minority instead of investigated to determine their value. I am saddened that my country was founded on the principles of individual liberty but there is very little of that to be found today: our government tells us what we can and cannot do in matters that don't concern them (abortion and gay marriage being the big ones). I am saddened that our government spends taxpayer money funding the agenda of religious organizations.

I don't agree with Obama on a few topics, but I certainly don't want a conservative in the White House. The odds are good that the next president will be selecting two, perhaps three, Supreme Court justices and the pendulum has already swung too far to the right for my tastes. While I may not be voting Democrat, I cannot in good conscience vote Republican. (Which is how I have voted in prior elections, but not 2000 or 2004. I was registered as Independent until I switched to Republican so that I could vote for Ron Paul in the Florida primary (we're a closed primary state) but I will be switching my registration back before this election.)

It sounds like I don't agree with all of your political leanings, but you raise some really good points. I've heard democrats say that republicans are the big spenders and i've heard republicans say that democrats are the big spenders, when the truth is that BOTH PARTIES are big spenders, they just spend it on different things. And you're exactly right to worry about where it comes from, that's my concern too. When I look at Washington i just see waste and corruption and I'm so sick of them raising taxes again and again and not making any progress anywhere.

Mostly I just want the government to stop trying to save me from myself, get out of my way, and let me live my life.
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jfrazierjr
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Post by jfrazierjr »

BigO wrote:
Azhrei wrote:I agree that stating an opinion and not trying to force it on someone else is probably fine for this thread. But when it becomes an attempt to make converts out of one's readers, you've gone too far.

My leaning is libertarian. That means that in general I'm fiscally conservative and socially liberal. (That's not exactly right or there wouldn't be a "libertarian" label to begin with!)

I've not seen the conservatives being very "fiscal" lately, at the national level anyway, so I'm turned off of the conservative party. The liberal party wants to spend a lot of money on things that might actually help the country, but I'm worried about where the money will come from. It's easy to say that when we end our occupation of Iraq (note: the war was over years ago) that we'll have plenty of money. But we already have a 9 trillion dollar debt because of that occupation and associated screwups -- I don't want to see the money diverted to something else, I want to see the bills paid off!

I am truly saddened by the state of politics in this country. I am saddened that the parties have managed to so polarize the country into "red" states and "blue" states that no discussion can be had without someone yelling "traitor" to a patriot. I am saddened that when ideas are brought to the table they are shot down by a vocal minority instead of investigated to determine their value. I am saddened that my country was founded on the principles of individual liberty but there is very little of that to be found today: our government tells us what we can and cannot do in matters that don't concern them (abortion and gay marriage being the big ones). I am saddened that our government spends taxpayer money funding the agenda of religious organizations.

I don't agree with Obama on a few topics, but I certainly don't want a conservative in the White House. The odds are good that the next president will be selecting two, perhaps three, Supreme Court justices and the pendulum has already swung too far to the right for my tastes. While I may not be voting Democrat, I cannot in good conscience vote Republican. (Which is how I have voted in prior elections, but not 2000 or 2004. I was registered as Independent until I switched to Republican so that I could vote for Ron Paul in the Florida primary (we're a closed primary state) but I will be switching my registration back before this election.)

It sounds like I don't agree with all of your political leanings, but you raise some really good points. I've heard democrats say that republicans are the big spenders and i've heard republicans say that democrats are the big spenders, when the truth is that BOTH PARTIES are big spenders, they just spend it on different things. And you're exactly right to worry about where it comes from, that's my concern too. When I look at Washington i just see waste and corruption and I'm so sick of them raising taxes again and again and not making any progress anywhere.

Mostly I just want the government to stop trying to save me from myself, get out of my way, and let me live my life.


Umm you last sentence pretty much sums up my view also. stop trying to "fix" things for everyone and just stay out of our way. I would be just as happy if they all go home and never come back. I wish we could change the constitution to have term limits on ever single office and could only hold sessions 2 weeks out of each year.
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Post by BigO »

jfrazierjr wrote:I wish we could change the constitution to have term limits on ever single office and could only hold sessions 2 weeks out of each year.

Hmm, term limits. That's on my list of things to learn more about. The president has term limits but no one else seems to. I don't know enough about the ramifications of it (especially where congress is concerned) to make an informed opinion, though on the surface they do seem like a good idea.

I can't think of a reason why it would be good for a president but bad for a senator.
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Post by Full Bleed »

BigO wrote:I find this fascinating. So far you're the only one who is getting upset about anything, and your problem doesn't seem to be anyone's particular opinion about the topic, it's the very existence of the thread.


You're being purposely obtuse. There's nothing fascinating about my position. You're far too intelligent not to understand it OR find it "fascinating."

Why do you think there has not been one political thread on this forum for the two years of it's existence? Is it because no one here cares about politics? Have you hit on something no one else has thought to post?

No.

It's because rational, experienced people know that when you start arguing about stuff this personal, the party is over.

When you get a group of diverse friends together you don't go, "Ok, who thinks abortion is Murder?" And then look around at all the women for the one that flinches. And you don't go, "Who here thinks homosexuals should not be allowed to marry?" And then look around to see if the "suspect" individual looks real uncomfortable. "Who thinks rape is about sex or violence?" and then see who gets flushed.

Heck, I bet George Bush doesn't show up at Chenny's house and start instigating a debate about a constitutional amendment banning gays from marriage. Why not? Because he has enough couth not to wreck a good party over an issue that he knows is personal to his friend (Chenny's daughter is gay)... even when they are on the same page 99% of the time.

And if you think for a second that you know the people that participate in this forum enough to engage them in debate over personal subjects, you're mistaken. You don't know them at all.

I've seen people on this forum get pissed over X not equaling x. I've seen you "have to take a breath and calm down" (your words) before posting on a trivial coding issue. Lets see someone come to the defense of a girlfriend or wife that has had an abortion and see how personal it gets.

That's not what this forum has been about since I've been here and I hate to see it go that direction. Nothing "fascinating" about that desire.

It's just common sense.

I mean, really, I wanted to be done with this thread, much like Dracorat after his post. But it's hard to walk away from something you've been a part of for over a year just because you see the ship taking on water.

And for the record, I'm not asking for a mod or dev to delete this thread. I don't believe in any sort of censorship. But I am asking you to consider why you think contentious debate will make this a better place? Why you don't realize that once one person calls another person a "baby killer", the fun time is done.

It doesn't all just begin and end within this thread. It will spill over. I mean, really... are some going to be as quick to help others with a MT problem when they "know they support killing babies"? What if someone is gay and they see someone here rail against gay marriage? And are you sure that no one who uses MT is an illegal immigrant? Are you sure that these diverse positions will have no bearing on how people around here will interact with one another?

Don't kid yourself. That's not the way the real world works.

What does MT have to benefit from political discussion and debate? Are you really that hard-up for arguments that you think *this forum* is the place for it?

For nearly 2 years now the community-at-large certainly knew better. But you're going to act like you have no clue why these subjects haven't been debated here? Your own post started *without an opinion* and with you "hiding behind a table to get a cover bonus against the inevitable projectiles."

Well, that's just what you got from me and you're "fascinated" by it?

I'm sorry. I find that to be sickly transparent and I apparently don't share the same respect for the devil's advocate as you do.

I've disrupted the flow of this thread. Discouraged others from participating. And made a strong case, even if you want to pretend to have no clue what I'm talking about (a very juvenile debating tactic, btw, especially given that you're the one advocating that we're "all adults.") And I have been happy to do it. But if you want to keep creating more threads like this, I most certainly will *not* get in your way.

This will, hopefully, be my last word on the subject as I feel there is nothing more I can say to make my position any clearer. I feel rather confident that by this point you get what I'm saying, even if you do not agree with it.

At the very least, I suspect this response will be far less "fascinating" than the last.

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Post by BigO »

Full Bleed wrote:
BigO wrote:I find this fascinating. So far you're the only one who is getting upset about anything, and your problem doesn't seem to be anyone's particular opinion about the topic, it's the very existence of the thread.


You're being purposely obtuse. There's nothing fascinating about my position. You're far too intelligent not to understand it OR find it "fascinating."

And now you're calling me a liar and putting words in my mouth. I DO find your position fascinating, and I didn't say I did not that I don't understand it.
Full Bleed wrote:Why do you think there has not been one political thread on this forum for the two years of it's existence? Is it because no one here cares about politics? Have you hit on something no one else has thought to post?

No.

It's because rational, experienced people know that when you start arguing about stuff this personal, the party is over.

I think it's because everyone is afraid that it will break out into an argument. I don't share that fear. My comment about the table was intended to break tension, not to indicate a belief that an inevitable argument was about to happen. And so far I've been proven right. If you stop to read everyone else's posts you see that no one is being insulting or argumentative (except you), and there have been some good thoughtful responses so far from both sides of the isle. Including from our moderator. This is exactly what I expected.
Full Bleed wrote:When you get a group of diverse friends together you don't go, "Ok, who thinks abortion is Murder?" And then look around at all the women for the one that flinches. And you don't go, "Who here thinks homosexuals should not be allowed to marry?" And then look around to see if the "suspect" individual looks real uncomfortable. "Who thinks rape is about sex or violence?" and then see who gets flushed.

That's not what I did. If the topic of the thread was "Abortion is Murder, discuss", or "Gays are sinners" or something, then yeah, that would be trying to incite a riot.
Full Bleed wrote:And if you think for a second that you know the people that participate in this forum enough to engage them in debate over personal subjects, you're mistaken. You don't know them at all.

No, I don't think I "know" people around here. And I'm guessing neither do you. So from that standpoint, my belief that it's not going to be a hurtful debate is no more or less informed than your belief that it is. I'm just choosing to be optimistic.
Full Bleed wrote:It doesn't all just begin and end within this thread. It will spill over. I mean, really... are some going to be as quick to help others with a MT problem when they "know they support killing babies"? What if someone is gay and they see someone here rail against gay marriage? And are you sure that no one who uses MT is an illegal immigrant? Are you sure that these diverse positions will have no bearing on how people around here will interact with one another?

I don't think there will be spill-over that isn't already there. Someone that is insensitive enough to call someone a baby killer would have already been pissing people off from other insensitive comments.
Full Bleed wrote:What does MT have to benefit from political discussion and debate? Are you really that hard-up for arguments that you think *this forum* is the place for it?

No more or less benefit than a discussion about darknight, or anything else that gets put in the general thread. It's a topic that I'm interested in, and want to discuss with others.
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Post by Azhrei »

Let's avoid the name-calling, eh? There's no point in that.

As I've already said, if you want to state your opinion that's fine. But when you try to convince/argue/debate with others about why their opinion is wrong or yours is right, you're crossing the line.

I'm with BigO on this one -- I think people can act rationally and courteously if they want. I don't consider an argument to be courteous, however.

So, one last time... State your opinion, don't argue it. I would rather this thread not be the one where the newbie moderator has to become involved! ;)

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Post by jfrazierjr »

Ok, back on the actual topic. I believe the Democratic party leadership wants to tax the american people into oblivion. I believe they think no one can think for themselves and want to control what you make, what you spend and where. Likewise, I believe the leadership of the Republican party want to borrow us into oblivion.

My preference leans toward the republican party platform's "stated" goals" rather than what they tend to do: Smaller federal government, less intrusion, more local control. ie, following that thing call the 10th amendment. Though I am a strong believer that the 1st amendment is the one that is debated the most

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.


the 10th amendment
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.



is the one that is trampled upon the most and I can almost guarantee, that the vast majority of americans cannot tell you more than 3 of them and will probably even get those 3 partly wrong.


My bottom line is that I like neither candidate, just like I liked neither candidate in 2004 nor 2000. I ended up voting for who I thought was the lesser of two evils. Likewise, I will do the same thing this year. Personally, though I like Ron Paul because he REALLY gets it in terms of what the constitution really means. Granted, I don't agree with all of his positions, but hey, I won't with anyone.


This is one of the reasons I am hugely in support of term limits, and not just for federal office, but governors, state legislators, mayors, town council, all the way down to local school board. I believe a lot of people get into politics with good intentions on both sides and the vast majority get corrupted by the system and term limits is one way to fix that problem.
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Post by Phergus »

IMO, Full Bleed is right on the money on this and I'd rather see this thread go away entirely.

This thread is a cancer and it was started with that intent.

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Post by tektonik »

Phergus wrote:IMO, Full Bleed is right on the money on this and I'd rather see this thread go away entirely.

This thread is a cancer and it was started with that intent.


It hasn't been Godwin'd yet.

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Post by BigO »

Phergus wrote:IMO, Full Bleed is right on the money on this and I'd rather see this thread go away entirely.

This thread is a cancer and it was started with that intent.

I disagree that this is cancerous and it's flat out FALSE to say that that was my intent. I don't know how to state this any more clearly than I already have, but I'm am NOT trying to start an argument. I enjoy the topic of politics and I want to discuss it. End of story.

Now, is there anyone else that wants to call me a liar or can we get back to the topic now? Go ahead and vent if you need to. I won't get upset. Just get it all out of your system so the rest of us can have an adult conversation.
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Post by BigO »

jfrazierjr wrote:Ok, back on the actual topic. I believe the Democratic party leadership wants to tax the american people into oblivion. I believe they think no one can think for themselves and want to control what you make, what you spend and where. Likewise, I believe the leadership of the Republican party want to borrow us into oblivion.

Like I said before, I think both parties now are big spenders, they just spend it on different things. And lots of members of congress like to make a big show out of teaming up with members from the other side of the isle to spend the money. I fail to see why we need so many laws. What would happen if the whole congress took an entire year off and no new laws were passed? They could just kept the same budget from the year before, and I think we'd be just fine.
jfrazierjr wrote:My bottom line is that I like neither candidate, just like I liked neither candidate in 2004 nor 2000. I ended up voting for who I thought was the lesser of two evils. Likewise, I will do the same thing this year. Personally, though I like Ron Paul because he REALLY gets it in terms of what the constitution really means. Granted, I don't agree with all of his positions, but hey, I won't with anyone.

I'm also not happy with either of them this year. The more I learn about politics the more I see that at the end of the day there is very little difference between the parties. Sure, they split along issues like abortion and gun rights, and what not, but no matter who you vote for you end up with larger government, corruption, bigger spending, and no more solutions than you did before.
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Post by UntoldGlory »

Pretty soon palpatine's gonna take over.

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Post by Cweord »

He already has, just in a different country . . . . .
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