American politics

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BigO
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Post by BigO »

UntoldGlory wrote:Pretty soon palpatine's gonna take over.

You're right, when I said:
BigO wrote:Go ahead and vent if you need to. I won't get upset. Just get it all out of your system so the rest of us can have an adult conversation.

I should have said:
BigO wrote:I can feel your anger. I am defenseless. Take your weapon. Strike me down with all of your hatred, and your journey towards the dark side will be complete.

<insert rimshot here>
--O

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BigO
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Post by BigO »

Something funny happened to me yesterday. I had just finished posting to this thread when someone knocked on my door. It was none other than (and I SWEAR I'm not making this up) my local state representative canvasing the neighborhood asking for votes. I couldn't help but lol. Seemed like a pretty nice guy. Said he had a plan to reduce property taxes, so as a home owner I can't help but like that.
--O

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kat2cute
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Post by kat2cute »

UntoldGlory wrote:However, I cannot ignore the issue of abortion. No financial or environmental gains are to me worth furthering the pro-choice agenda. McCain's choice of VP strongly states his campaigns stand in this area.

I would qualify my views very similar to Azhrei. I am an extremely frugal person with my money and think that if the rest of the country was too, we wouldn't be in so much of an economic crisis right now. However, being a conservative in money and a conservative in freedom of rights is COMPLETELY different and I don't know why the Republican party has decided to become the Christian party. The president's job is to defend our country with split second decisions and to prevent most of these last minute crises by having good diplomatic relations with the rest of the world. The fact that you personally think abortion is wrong and would never do it yourself is fine with me, but the fact that you are willing to not only <i>force </i> this view upon others who might have very good reasons to think otherwise, but you are willing to sacrifice the <i>all the other</i> core values you just described. Giving up strong <i>financial, economic, and diplomatic relations</i> to force this one SMALL view on others is a very, very sad thing.

You know Bush won the election because he made Abortion a very important point in his campaign? Are you happy with what bush has done on abortion, or anything Bush has done in the last 8 years? Just because the presidential candidate happens to share your same view on that one topic does NOT mean he can or will change the laws regarding it, all it means is that he will try to preach his viewpoint and hamper diplomatic relations both in our own country and others.

I beg people to not vote on such a big campaign because of single topics (especially topics that are clearly protected in the constitution), and to see the whole picture, and the whole platform; not only the platform ideas proposed by the candidates, but also those that are actually performable rather than rhetoric and hot air.

I do not understand the ferocity of the anti-abortionists. Noone is forcing any of them to get an abortion or impinging on their freedom of rights, but the alternative of banning abortion not only impinges on many people's freedoms, but also their health as they switch to alternative unsafe and then illegal abortion methods. Just because Weed/Drugs is banned now, does that stop people from smoking it?

So please, see the big picture and be a vote on the issue as a well-round and well-informed American.
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Post by emirikol »

I can't believe that this thread remains. It's terrible netiquette to discuss religion and politics.

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tektonik
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Post by tektonik »

kat2cute wrote:You know Bush won the election because he made Abortion a very important point in his campaign?


He won in 2004 based on gay marriage by all expert accounts and war on terror. Abortion was a non issue compared to those according to public polls


Everyone so far wrote: more rabble on abortion


The issue with abortion has nothing to do with most of what you all have debated... although many people mis-interpret that. Abortion is an issue of the state having the authority over a life. Same with capital punishment. That is why you can be pro-life and pro-CP. Thus, you can be "pro-choice" and still advocate against abortion just because you don't think it is right to do but the state has no right to be able to determine who lives or dies.

FYI State gets confused by Americans because of our federalist system. The state in political science is always the government and doesn't discern between federal and local. Iran is a state as is the USA. Somalia would be a "failed state" being that it has several prerequisites missing including monolithic power or the ability to police. Do not confuse state with nation. God, I have banged my head more about this towards freshmen than any other term. To be a nation you just need a common identity: black americans, women, Kurds, etc.etc. are all nations but definitely not states.

blah blah blah I will beat you all with constant theory from my poly sci classes all day if I get ticked off enough with irrational thought.

ps sorry but I just got done writing a paper and am in full political mode.
Last edited by tektonik on Mon Sep 01, 2008 12:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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BigO
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Post by BigO »

kat2cute wrote:I beg people to not vote on such a big campaign because of single topics (especially topics that are clearly protected in the constitution)

I don't agree that the constitution "clearly" gives people the right to have abortions (the constitutionality of the current laws are still under heavy debate, as you well know), but I definitely agree that it's not wise to vote on the basis of a single issue.

kat2cute wrote:I do not understand the ferocity of the anti-abortionists. Noone is forcing any of them to get an abortion or impinging on their freedom of rights, but the alternative of banning abortion not only impinges on many people's freedoms, but also their health as they switch to alternative unsafe and then illegal abortion methods.

I'm not interested in debating abortion, so I'm not going to contradict you, but it sounds like you are uncertain about why the issue is so important to the pro-choice crowd. And weather or not you agree with them, the logic they are using isn't hard to understand. Most people who are pro-choice view an abortion as the killing of a child. Murder.

Again, I realize that you don't agree with that position, but it's not hard to see why people who DO hold that opinion would feel strongly about it. In their mind a woman shouldn't have the right to abort a child anymore than a woman should have the right to kill her husband.
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kat2cute
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Post by kat2cute »

BigO wrote:I don't agree that the constitution "clearly" gives people the right to have abortions (the constitutionality of the current laws are still under heavy debate, as you well know), but I definitely agree that it's not wise to vote on the basis of a single issue.

I agree. I guess I was thinking more of the lump of other hot topic freedoms like Gay Marriage/Rights when I made the constitution comment. Not allowing gay marriage is, to me, a clear violation of discrimination laws. It is much more clear-cut then abortion. I personally don't believe a fetus is a human with rights until it gains the ability to have conscious thought, as until then it is just a bunching of cells, incapable of pain or 'murder'. But I DO understand why people are opposed to it (murder and all), but the fact that it becomes a sole topic of some people's rational for voting when the economy and environment are like they are is the part I don't understand.

I like to keep up to date with my news in an entertaining fashion. That is why I like to get my news from the Daily Show, Colbert report, and Fark.com. "With a grain of salt" is the only way to take the news nowadays, and it might as well give you a good laugh in the process.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/8/27/22326/5277/714/576952

And for the warning of rudeness of topic or impending doom, these discussions have been very civil and pleasant. I believe it is BECAUSE the maptool forums are full of a higher quality of person than the rest of the internet in general we are able to have a thread like this. Besides, if the topic is insulting to anyone, I would hope the thread title would tip them off not to read it.

In case people would rather discuss a less hot topic, I am also for a complete revolution into socialized medicine. The sort that Britain and France have, rather than the weak start from Obama's suggestion (which is still better than anything McCain has suggested). If you haven't seen the documentary "Sicko", I highly recommend it.
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Post by dorpond »

Full Bleed wrote:Image


I'm Vegetarian, and I am very offended!
:) :lol:

Heh, all kidding aside, I would like to make a general comment to everyone. We play all D&D, Heroes, Savage Worlds, and whole slew of other games; we have situations where we slay creatures, slay humanoids, make moral descisions, get healed by religious followers, usually have a world with many gods, and have dealings with different politial nations/views.

We laugh
We smile
We love Trevor... Oh, sorry 'bout that.. :)

Really though, I think we all need to relax a bit. BigO is a great guy and was just bringing up a topic that we should be all adult enough to either post on or walk away from, even if we are offended by bacon. :)
Last edited by dorpond on Mon Sep 01, 2008 9:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by voodoo »

dorpond wrote:
We laugh
We smile
We love Trevor... Oh, sorry 'bout that.. :)



I thought we would not discuss gay marriage anymore!
All kidding aside, I agree 100% with your point of view (which I cannot quote since I don't know how to cite and quote again after my response).

But, as a foreigner, it is fascinating to see how Americans hate paying taxes. When I pay taxes in my country (much, much more than you do), I think about the schools, the hospitals, the roads and trains. I think about all the people I see in my ER that have terrible diseases but don't have to worry about having to chose between paying for their treatment or paying for their children's college...

(and let's not start about the american love of guns...)

Foreign politics is always a very interesting subject (just don't get me started on my president :D )

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Post by BigO »

voodoo wrote:But, as a foreigner, it is fascinating to see how Americans hate paying taxes.

I am definitely an American who hates paying taxes, but I've often thought about how that must look to a European who pays way way more than we do. Kind of like how we like to complain about high gas prices when the rest of the world has been paying 2 to 4 times as much for years now.
voodoo wrote:When I pay taxes in my country (much, much more than you do), I think about the schools, the hospitals, the roads and trains.

Even with my realization stated above, I still hate paying taxes. For me it's because the taxes keep going up ("think of the children!" they say) but the money doesn't go to schools or vital services, it goes to pet projects backed by corporations who are paying off senators and such. I think with a focus on efficiency we could lower taxes AND do a better job at funding things like that.
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BigO
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Post by BigO »

dorpond wrote:Heh, all kidding aside, I would like to make a general comment to everyone. We play all D&D, Heroes, Savage Worlds, and whole slew of other games; we have situations where we slay creatures, slay humanoids, make moral descisions, get healed by religious followers, usually have a world with many gods, and have dealings with different politial nations/views.

We laugh
We smile
We love Trevor... Oh, sorry 'bout that.. :)

Really though, I think we all need to relax a bit. BigO is a great guy and was just bringing up a topic that we should be all adult enough to either post on or walk away from, even if we are offended by bacon. :)

Thank you Dorpond. I couldn't have said it any better. I'm not trying to anger anyone, I seriously thought that the people who didn't like to talk about it would just avoid the thread.
--O

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jfrazierjr
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Post by jfrazierjr »

BigO wrote:
voodoo wrote:But, as a foreigner, it is fascinating to see how Americans hate paying taxes.

I am definitely an American who hates paying taxes, but I've often thought about how that must look to a European who pays way way more than we do. Kind of like how we like to complain about high gas prices when the rest of the world has been paying 2 to 4 times as much for years now.
voodoo wrote:When I pay taxes in my country (much, much more than you do), I think about the schools, the hospitals, the roads and trains.

Even with my realization stated above, I still hate paying taxes. For me it's because the taxes keep going up ("think of the children!" they say) but the money doesn't go to schools or vital services, it goes to pet projects backed by corporations who are paying off senators and such. I think with a focus on efficiency we could lower taxes AND do a better job at funding things like that.


I hate paying for taxes because our government wastes it, THEN COMES DEMAND MORE AT THE POINT OF JAIL. For example, our state had a surplus of 1 billion dollars in 2007. What did they do with it, the spent it instead of giving back to the people. 2008 surplus of 1 billion dollars, they spend it, and then have the temerity to raise taxes.

On top of all that, our schools are falling further and further behind other countries and the morons that run the government just don't get the fact that money is not the answer to most problems. We have also seen that more than not, private schools out perform public schools by a large margin and do so for less cost, but cannot get school choice because of teacher unions. In the interest of full disclosure, my Aunt was a teacher, my Mother is a teacher, my cousin is a teacher and another aunt was a teacher at a school for the deaf, so I am not against teachers in general, but against the unions that block "progress" and allow for true choice.

This, along with the reasons mentioned above by BigO are why we Americans(at least some of us anyway) hate paying taxes. It's not that we don't want to pay taxes as we are feed up with being forced by gun point to keep giving more and more and getting less and less in return.


Please note, that though my opinions here are presented very strongly, I have no intention of them being presented in a confrontational manner. This i just my opinion on something I feel very strongly about, hopefully to allow others to see things the way I do, even if they don't feel the same way about an issue.
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Post by Azhrei »

I want to say that I'm very happy -- and impressed! -- with the RPTools crowd we have here. There have not been any blowups or hate-mongering or Godwin-ism (is that a word?) so I have not done anything to lock the thread.

Be careful when you restate your opinions, however. That quickly becomes argumentation or debating, and if it gets to that point then the thread will be locked.

In the mean time, if you want to express an opinion on the matter and you're mature enough to do so in a civil manner, then go for it. :)

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Post by tektonik »

Azhrei wrote:Godwin-ism (is that a word?)


I think the proper term would be "to invoke Godwin's Law"

Once that happens this thread should pretty much be over.

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Post by voodoo »

BigO wrote:
voodoo wrote:But, as a foreigner, it is fascinating to see how Americans hate paying taxes.

I am definitely an American who hates paying taxes, but I've often thought about how that must look to a European who pays way way more than we do. Kind of like how we like to complain about high gas prices when the rest of the world has been paying 2 to 4 times as much for years now.
.

Actually, when I go to the USA, the conversion is pretty easy : I pay for a gallon (4.5 liters) what I pay for a liter back in Europe (and the difference is mostly taxes...)

BigO wrote:
voodoo wrote:When I pay taxes in my country (much, much more than you do), I think about the schools, the hospitals, the roads and trains.

Even with my realization stated above, I still hate paying taxes. For me it's because the taxes keep going up ("think of the children!" they say) but the money doesn't go to schools or vital services, it goes to pet projects backed by corporations who are paying off senators and such. I think with a focus on efficiency we could lower taxes AND do a better job at funding things like that.


Of course, I do see how much money is wasted by my government (I work in a public hospital so I am very aware of how people working there spend hospital money like they would never waste their money) but since I do have to pay my taxes, I prefer to think about the good things that are done with my taxes (like paying for my salary, even though it is a fraction of what I would get in a private hospital...)

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