4e - Monks - Now with exciting mind bullets!

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tektonik
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4e - Monks - Now with exciting mind bullets!

Post by tektonik »

Any thoughts on the monks?

As much as I enjoy them I feel you can't gauge this class as a striker without feats. You are limited to simple weapons and your fist (which has stats of a martial weapon). To keep up with any other striker they need some sort of feat to give them superior weapons or make their fists act as one (as they hinted they will do in ampersand). Limited to cloth but no feat to boost ac/what enchantments are you going to use right now before PHB3 anyways?

As a DM how will you handle finding magical fists? My first inkling is making them handwraps.

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Re: 4e - Monks - Now with exciting mind bullets!

Post by Orchard »

tektonik wrote:Any thoughts on the monks?

As much as I enjoy them I feel you can't gauge this class as a striker without feats. You are limited to simple weapons and your fist (which has stats of a martial weapon). To keep up with any other striker they need some sort of feat to give them superior weapons or make their fists act as one (as they hinted they will do in ampersand). Limited to cloth but no feat to boost ac/what enchantments are you going to use right now before PHB3 anyways?

As a DM how will you handle finding magical fists? My first inkling is making them handwraps.


Were are you seeing this? Is this an Insider only thing right now? Cause I'd love to see what information there is... (curse me for not paying for it, but I'm not playing 4e!)
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Re: 4e - Monks - Now with exciting mind bullets!

Post by tektonik »

Indeed, DDI only. Basically monk is Psionic power source. If there are more details you want be a bit more specific.

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Re: 4e - Monks - Now with exciting mind bullets!

Post by Orchard »

tektonik wrote:Indeed, DDI only. Basically monk is Psionic power source. If there are more details you want be a bit more specific.


Hmm...no, I'm mostly content to see what else emerges...but it looks like this is on track to be in PHB3, right?

For me the move to 4e needs to be a complete move. I need the entire set of core classes, and for me the monk is and should be, a core class. I've given the internet a poke and it appears that the monk is highly mobile (good!), and i'm happy with the idea of using the psionic power source as a stand-in for ki. I personally see the two as essentially the same anyway--different names for the same thing.

I tend to reflavor everything for my own campaigns ANYWAY, so it's all good.
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Re: 4e - Monks - Now with exciting mind bullets!

Post by hyperactiveChipmunk »

I really like the "Full Discipline" keyword skills. They're totally awesome and have a ton of character.

-hC

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Re: 4e - Monks - Now with exciting mind bullets!

Post by tektonik »

Orchard wrote:
Hmm...no, I'm mostly content to see what else emerges...but it looks like this is on track to be in PHB3, right?

For me the move to 4e needs to be a complete move. I need the entire set of core classes, and for me the monk is and should be, a core class. I've given the internet a poke and it appears that the monk is highly mobile (good!), and i'm happy with the idea of using the psionic power source as a stand-in for ki. I personally see the two as essentially the same anyway--different names for the same thing.

I tend to reflavor everything for my own campaigns ANYWAY, so it's all good.


I like it. The ampersand article gives a good idea on where the monk is heading with feats. People complain that monks do not get relegion as a skill. My argument is two-fold 1)not every monk is religious; every monk is focused on inner energy, however. 2) They present a PP that gives Channel Divinity (Hello Tempus Monks) the requirement is trained in relegion. You get nifty divine stuff as well.

Basically they want a 1 feat requirement (or background if you're campaign does that thing) in order for a monk to gain access to Righteous Rage of Tempus (face it that is their benchmark for CD now). Besides if I wanted to play a religous monk why would I not take a mc feat in a divine power source anyways unless there is some power gamer reason (wanting rain of blows or blade cascade)

Interesting enough I can't wait to see the STR side of the monk in the full release. Monk/Fighter PP Shock Trooper will give you 1d10 hands or if there is a feat to increase your hand size.... 1d12. Take the Eternal Defender ED and you get 2d6 hand weapons that are off hand. Hello.

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Re: 4e - Monks - Now with exciting mind bullets!

Post by Brigand »

I'm not please with the removal of the Ki power source and turning them into psychic warriors. I'd rather they have gone arcane instead and done something mystical with tattoos.

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Re: 4e - Monks - Now with exciting mind bullets!

Post by Hawke »

I really like it. Very very cool way to setup a class with the combined Full Discipline powers. Some good options w/o messing with the economy of actions and forcing some tough choices.

Do I do X and be able to shift a bunch (I really need to!) or do I do Y which isn't as good but I get a cool jump. The choices!!!

I thought up having some weights with some magical runes on them. The monk would train the "form" explained in the runes for an hour and the runes would slowly wear away. After the hour, the weights were no longer magical and used up and you now know "Form of the Flaming Fist +2"

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Re: 4e - Monks - Now with exciting mind bullets!

Post by tektonik »

If I were to allow monk in a campaign I ran I would change flurry to do 1d4+ wis with a feat to make it 2d4.

That way the monk can add their enh mod to damage as well (flurry has implement keyword) and possibly make it a typed damage with the right weapon (depending on how you rule Frost weapons on implement attacks)

Next, Come up with some level 22 util (they have none), Lastly add some feats to increase their weapon damage. I am thinking unarmed 1d10, scimitar, glaive feats are a given and possibly "form feats" which you can take one and allow your hands to count as a weapon group for enchantments (possibly feats too)

That would be enough filler to last until phb3 comes out and I'd allow for a remake.

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Re: 4e - Monks - Now with exciting mind bullets!

Post by Rumble »

tektonik wrote:As a DM how will you handle finding magical fists? My first inkling is making them handwraps.



Ruleswise, mostly as written - they're technically enchanted weapons. No actual physical item will be required, unless the player wants to have wraps or tattoos or something, but they'll be fluff-only (at least, until we see what PHB3 holds). In any case, the Monk Unarmed Strike is not their hands, it's their whole body (which brings up dual-wielding weirdness, which I intend to ignore by putting my fingers in my ears and crying "la la la").

In play, if a Monk shows up, I hope to handle things like this:

- Obtaining them will simply be fluffed as, for example, "mastering the 7th Circle Fire Warrior technique" (+1 Flaming Unarmed Strike) or "achieving enlightenment along the Path of the Ten Storm Dragons" (+2 Lightning Unarmed Strike).
- I'm not going to twit around with the enchant / disenchant rituals. You cannot disenchant your Monk Unarmed Strike; you can only replace the enchantment or improve it (so, if you want to keep your Lightning Fists, you can get an item level instead of a change in enchantment).
- This poses the problem that the monk cannot be disarmed. What's more, since a Monk Unarmed Strike is not specifically their hands, if a Monk character is to be imprisoned, then the jailer will have to completely immobilize the Monk. This is not really a problem, for me. In fact, it's sorta the point, I think - the monk is his or her weapon, and should be handled with great care. That said, I would not mind seeing (or creating) something that give typical weapon-using classes a little oomph in the unarmed combat arena, so long as it doesn't tread heavily on the Monk's archetype.


I would love to see a feat set that lets you alter the enchantment (maybe on a daily or encounter-by-encounter basis) - if you've mastered Fire Warrior Technique and the Ten Storm Dragon Path, then you should be able to choose to deliver lightning or fire damage in some fashion. But I don't know - I don't want to make the Monk the Uber-character, either, and I'm no game designer.

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Re: 4e - Monks - Now with exciting mind bullets!

Post by tektonik »

If you can TWF is it like 2 separate enchants or is it like double weapons? That is my other big question

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Re: 4e - Monks - Now with exciting mind bullets!

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tektonik wrote:If you can TWF is it like 2 separate enchants or is it like double weapons? That is my other big question


Of course none of these are new questions. It was always a serious exception to the rules, and required some serious consideration. And it's not just not two weapons, either. Leaving aside 4e as a curious footnote, let's examine the concept of a monk.

He's a martial fighter of extreme skill dedicated to the perfection of his art. He hones his body and mind until he is extremely powerful. His weapon of choice is himself. All other weapons are extensions of the self.

Having studied Shao-lin do (it's related to kung fu and both come directly from the shao-lin temples) a bit when I was younger and less lazy, I know that some traditions refuse to teach ANY weapons until a student has mastered their own body as a weapon. As my sifu thought of it, the human body was far more dangerous and need much more training. Since this was a man who could crack coconuts with his bare hands (not an easy task!), I tended to listen.

Back to the point a bit. Monks don't just use their fists or even their feet to strike. It's elbows, knees, forearms, shins, shoulders, and even headbutts. This is leaving aside traditions that use things like locks and throws (Judo is a popular example, but I'm specifically think of Chin Na http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chin_na), which is very very effective. In martial arts it is rare to strike an opponent just once--a strike is followed by a series of strikes (at least that is the goal).

Unfortunately without having a player roll scads of dice, it's hard to represent this beyond saying, 'each roll represents the actual strike, not the series of feints and maneuvers that leads up to the best shot'. This approach, which is essentially how combat rolls in 3.x are described works well for a fencer or other lightly armored fighter engaged against another similarly kitted opponent. But the monk changes this. The monk is attacking with their whole body, and against an untrained opponent (especially a monster of some sort), this isn't going to be a series of feints. Such a creature isn't even going to have a defense against the speed they have in most cases. The mindflayer isn't going to put up a lot of physical defense against the monk...but they might try to eat his brain still.

So the monk attacks with feet, hands, elbows, etc. Is the multi-weapon fighting? How many attacks do they get? At what sort of penalty?

Here's how I would see it approached: A monk should be able to take as many attacks as they like up to their initiative+level/(some number). Each successive attack incurs an additional -1 (or -2) penalty to hit and all attacks after the first do 1/2 damage.

Maybe this is an encounter power or an at-will power (moving this squarely back to 4e terms), but I think that the monk should be able to make more attacks than they do. Not to incur massive amounts of damage with EACH attack, but to wear the opponent down with lots of attacks.

Feel free to hack any of this apart. Much of it is my personal views.
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Re: 4e - Monks - Now with exciting mind bullets!

Post by logopolis »

tektonik wrote:If you can TWF is it like 2 separate enchants or is it like double weapons?
The way the playtest text is written, it seems to me that every monk has a single enchanted "monk unarmed strike" technique attached to him that he can use with any part of his body.

If a multiclass monk used the ranger's Twin Strike attack, for example, I would allow the full enchantment (properties and all) to be used with each attack.
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Re: 4e - Monks - Now with exciting mind bullets!

Post by Rumble »

Orchard wrote:Maybe this is an encounter power or an at-will power (moving this squarely back to 4e terms), but I think that the monk should be able to make more attacks than they do. Not to incur massive amounts of damage with EACH attack, but to wear the opponent down with lots of attacks.

Feel free to hack any of this apart. Much of it is my personal views.



Single-target multi-attacks are generally the purview of only a few classes 4E (okay, really, the purview of the Ranger :) ), with others picking up one or two powers like that on the way. This doesn't bother me, and I wouldn't institute a rule making an exception to that rule that isn't within already established boundaries (basically, I would only make them as part of powers).

I agree that the monk should have some single-target multi-attacks (like Twin Strike for the Ranger), because that would be cool. However, we're also only seeing one out of four "builds" for the Monk; it's possible that additional powers will show up with a focus on putting one enemy down quick.

The Monk - or the monk we see - is an odd duck. It's much more of a controller than the typical striker classes are; lots of multiple attacks with low individual damage output, lots of status effects and action denial, etc. I think it's really cool, but it's only one option. I'm keenly interested in the rest. Maybe the Strength-focused monk will be about hammering single enemies into paste, or another Dex-build will have more focus on Death of a Thousand Cuts kind of attacks.

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Re: 4e - Monks - Now with exciting mind bullets!

Post by tektonik »

They strongly hinted that the str monk will do extra damage rather than slide 1 to a flurried target (that you dont hit of course). They don't realize after all this time that it is better for a striker to focus rather than spread damage.

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