Very large images

Post by **trevor** » Tue Jul 04, 2006 4:35 pm

I've been making steady progress getting the very large image support working. I've got scaling working, so just a couple more issues to iron out.

Phergus · Post by **Phergus** » Tue Jul 04, 2006 9:08 pm

Very cool. Looking forward to it.

Post by **dorpond** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 6:13 am

Indeed!

Thanks Trevor!

drswoboda · Post by **drswoboda** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 2:23 pm

Working on a Holiday. Now that is dedication. I am amazed by the amount and quality of output by the developers on this project.

-Cheers

Phergus · Post by **Phergus** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 7:06 pm

I am amazed by the amount and quality of output by the developers on this project.

No kidding. I wish Fluid had a team like this working on Dundjinni. It is bad need of some updates and I fear that don't actually have anyone working on it.

Post by **dorpond** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 10:21 pm

Phergus wrote:No kidding. I wish Fluid had a team like this working on Dundjinni. It is bad need of some updates and I fear that don't actually have anyone working on it.

Yeah, they pulled that with E-tools; now they come out with a great product but don't update it ever.. I agree, it has serious potential but is limited by little progress..

Trevor and company ROCK!

Steel Rat · Post by **Steel Rat** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 11:36 am

I hope I don't get mauled for this. But I think they should have two versions of MapTool, free and pay. Free version would be basic, essentially what we have now. Pay version would have advanced features, like Light-Revealed FoW, Customizable layers, etc.

I would certainly pay for the advanced version. As it is I intend to donate to the team for the free version.

Post by **trevor** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 11:56 am

Steel Rat wrote:I hope I don't get mauled for this. But I think they should have two versions of MapTool, free and pay. Free version would be basic, essentially what we have now. Pay version would have advanced features, like Light-Revealed FoW, Customizable layers, etc.

I would certainly pay for the advanced version. As it is I intend to donate to the team for the free version.

I had thought about that at one point. To be honest, I work on rptools because I really enjoy it, and it makes me happy when people use it and enjoy it. That's where the real value comes from

So the most valuable thing that the user base can do is spread the good word and bring in more users.

I always want to keep the tools free, on a single code base. Splitting into a basic and advanced requires additional maintainence that is always a pain. Also when people buy something, they feel entitled to support. And although I love chatting on the forums and getting people up and running, and implementing new features, I'm not super interested in feeling obligated to do so. That would take the fun out of it

At the same time, I'm not opposed to having a little income to offset hosting fees and stuff. One thought I had (I think there was a forum poll at one point) was to create a community around the tools and create rptool specific modules. This way you buy the content, and the player software is free. Think iTunes

The "community" part would be hosting maptool servers, so you can run your server on our host, and have the players connect directly to it. This would remove the tricky part of bypassing firewalls, and would provide a larger pipe for asset transfers (images, sounds, whatever). For the modules, imagine buying a campaign that has all the maps, encounters, and notes all set up and ready to go. That would be sweet ! And the best part would be that anyone could make them, and potentially sell them, which would bring more people in, which, you might remember, is where my value comes from

Hmmm, I think I'm done rambling now.

Post by **trevor** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 11:58 am

As I think about it though, I have been toying with the idea of basic and advanced modes. The primary motivation being to make the initial introduction incredibly accessible. Then as the user's skill improves, provide access to more advanced features. Layers is an example of this. In basic mode, there would be the background, tokens, and fow. Turn on advanced mode, and you would get more photoshop type layers.

Phergus · Post by **Phergus** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 12:07 pm

... I think they should have two versions of MapTool, free and pay...

While I wouldn't have a problem with that I like how they are doing it now.

I appreciate being able to pull down the source from SourceForge and muck about with it. I don't know that they could do that if they had a version that required payment.

Not to mention all the hassle with dealing with protection schemes and licensing, supporting users with flakey systems, the extra levels of obligation that comes with making it a "commercial" product.

To me that would be too much hassle. Don't know how they see it.

Post by **trevor** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 12:10 pm

Phergus wrote: To me that would be too much hassle. Don't know how they see it.

Agreed

Steel Rat · Post by **Steel Rat** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 12:11 pm

trevor wrote:I had thought about that at one point. To be honest, I work on rptools because I really enjoy it, and it makes me happy when people use it and enjoy it. That's where the real value comes from So the most valuable thing that the user base can do is spread the good word and bring in more users.

I always want to keep the tools free, on a single code base. Splitting into a basic and advanced requires additional maintainence that is always a pain. Also when people buy something, they feel entitled to support. And although I love chatting on the forums and getting people up and running, and implementing new features, I'm not super interested in feeling obligated to do so. That would take the fun out of it

At the same time, I'm not opposed to having a little income to offset hosting fees and stuff. One thought I had (I think there was a forum poll at one point) was to create a community around the tools and create rptool specific modules. This way you buy the content, and the player software is free. Think iTunes The "community" part would be hosting maptool servers, so you can run your server on our host, and have the players connect directly to it. This would remove the tricky part of bypassing firewalls, and would provide a larger pipe for asset transfers (images, sounds, whatever). For the modules, imagine buying a campaign that has all the maps, encounters, and notes all set up and ready to go. That would be sweet ! And the best part would be that anyone could make them, and potentially sell them, which would bring more people in, which, you might remember, is where my value comes from

Hmmm, I think I'm done rambling now.

Trevor,

I can totally relate to all this. I run... jeez I forget how many free community sites. But I also have an RPG business (it ain't filling my pockets or anything, lol, but it's fun).

Another option, like the Basic and Advanced idea, make the Advanced the pay portion. That way you have the same codebase, just some options are turned off until registered.

But I totally get your point.

And if I can help out in the hosting department, I will. free of charge. I have more than enough disk space and bandwidth (all of the sites I run together along with sites run by pther folks on my server don't even equal 2% of the total per month I have available). Perhaps this could take place in lieu of a monetary donation...

Post by **trevor** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 1:21 pm

Steel Rat wrote: And if I can help out in the hosting department, I will. free of charge. I have more than enough disk space and bandwidth (all of the sites I run together along with sites run by pther folks on my server don't even equal 2% of the total per month I have available). Perhaps this could take place in lieu of a monetary donation...

Hmmm, tempting, let me think about that

RPTroll · Post by **RPTroll** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 10:43 pm

I think there are a few ways to make money. One is map hosting. Another is game hosting. Yet another is taking a cut of modules developed and sold using maptool.

Post by **dorpond** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 8:16 am

Let me ask you something; do you think Code Monkey is laughing all the way to the bank making 6 dollars a dataset? Do you think they (meaning all the developers) can live comfortable off of that one job? I don't know this answer but let's do some math.

How many people actually buy these programs? Well that is hard - I guess I need to know how many people in the world play with pen and paper RPG's. Out of all my friends that play, I am the only one who has bought software like E-tools or map programs like Dundjinni. So how many people are there really buying? I have no clue so I am just going to pick a number that seems fair to me. 5000.

OK, let's say 5000 people bought MapTools for 30.00. That is 150.000 total. I am not sure how many development years are put into the product to make it sellable but that aside, that would be 50K over three years. Now, I am not sure how much a programmer makes in the real world but with my current expenses, 50K/year wouldn't keep me above water. Also, that 50K isn't always coming in year after year.

So now, the prodcut is being sold so now there has to be tech support hours which is a continual entity that needs to run along side of developing. A developer will have to decide; do I take valuable developing time away to support the user base or do I hire someone to resolve issues so I can continue developing? How long do I support the product? 3 years so I can guarantee that 50K per year income? So then the developer keeps the three year plan in the back of his mind. So then he shots to come out with a new product ever 3 years to ensure a 50K per year income.

Now, is that enough to live on? Will the developer need to hold his regular job too? Will he have to be far more devoted to his paying user base during work hours now? Who will answer the tech support section of the boards?

So the developer decides that he needs a bit more money. Well he can make and sell campaigns also. Well now the programmer not only has to make applications but he has to be a cartographer and writer on top of it. How much time is this going to take? What will be the ROI? Well, let's say he takes 1 month to put maps together and write a great little story for a finished campaign. He sells it for 5.00. How many people out of the 5000 people will buy this? I would say 1/2 to be safe but I think it would be far less. that is 12,500 dollars he makes over time but now he is trying to juggle making campaigns, programming and supporting users - he also lost a month of developing making that campaign... He probably cannot keep his job now because there is too much demand of his time... He has to quit losing gobs of money from that area of his life. But now, he can dedicate more time to "fun".

He decides to offload the "datasets" to others. He cannot afford to hire people so he makes an agreement to get 10% of user created datasets that are being sold. Now the community starts making datasets for the developer and the developer is getting flooded with materials.. There are a stack of 12 of these this week alone that he needs to go through to determine if they are worthy enough to sell.. He spends nights going through this stuff only to find that he has no time to program anymore; all for a dollar per dataset being sold...

Personally, I don't think it is worth it. I really don't think Janik over at DMGENIE is laughing all the way to the bank. For a matter of fact, he is tied to the community now that he sold the product. His code is locked so he is the only one working on it and users still ask for more features, more functions and more, more, more..

Keeping RPTOOLS open source will allow the community to come together. If Trevor had a serious project at work going on, he can fall back from RPTOOLS for a while and not feel locked in (although he probably would anyway). He can continue making a killing at his job and do this for fun.. Hey, I have found over my 36 years of living that once you take a hobby and make it a job, the fun goes away.. Once it goes away, then you move on to other things that are fun. I personally love that Trevor is having fun and is up here a lot. I wish I could say the same for the people I have bought from.

Anyway, sorry about my rambling thought processes.