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Discussion of initiative tool.

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jay
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Post by jay »

dorpond wrote:As far as being confusing, yeah I guess it would if there were a lot of them on the list but that can easily get simplified with a + (expand) and - (collapse) area right under the person on the list

Thoughts?

This would work fine in list mode, but not as well in table mode since the columns in the table won't mean anything for the alarms. That is why I was trying to make it be the tooltip for the item. I guess I could set it up so only the alarm column expanded, but it could still get messy. Guess we'll just have to try it and see what we all like :)

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Post by dorpond »

Advanced Feature:

Move conditions from player to player.

Drag and drop the Torch condition from the Fighter to the Mage. It moves the condition and the time remaining.

This could get tricky though with rounds because of where the recipient is when you drag it. Dragging it up the tree and down the tree could effect the expiration time depending on how you track it behind the scenes.

This would be a cool feature though for timer items that can be passed around:
"Hey, you carry this bomb! You are the tech of the group!"
"Take this torch mage while I cleave the enemy!"
"You take this rock with light cast on it, you'll need it more than I"
"How about you take this ring with silence cast on it"
"This sandwich smells like it is getting old, you take it!" :p

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Post by Steel Rat »

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jay
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Post by jay »

dorpond wrote:Advanced Feature:

Move conditions from player to player.

Drag and drop the Torch condition from the Fighter to the Mage. It moves the condition and the time remaining.

This could get tricky though with rounds because of where the recipient is when you drag it. Dragging it up the tree and down the tree could effect the expiration time depending on how you track it behind the scenes.

This would be a cool feature though for timer items that can be passed around:
"Hey, you carry this bomb! You are the tech of the group!"
"Take this torch mage while I cleave the enemy!"
"You take this rock with light cast on it, you'll need it more than I"
"How about you take this ring with silence cast on it"
"This sandwich smells like it is getting old, you take it!" :p

Another good idea, I'll add a tracker.

You wouldn't want to change the expiration time on it though, would you? You would want it to stay the same, even thought it is now owned by a separate creature.

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Post by Steel Rat »

jay wrote:You wouldn't want to change the expiration time on it though, would you? You would want it to stay the same, even thought it is now owned by a separate creature.


I could see a reason why you might need to. you have a magical light source to a person with magic suppressive abilities, either voluntary or not, might reduce the duration/effectiveness of the magic.
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Post by dorpond »

jay wrote:You wouldn't want to change the expiration time on it though, would you? You would want it to stay the same, even thought it is now owned by a separate creature.


I would say that most of the time, we won't need to change the expiration time.

The only way I can forsee it possibly happening is when the player says "When that torch runs out, I want to start another". We could just up the time on it or reset it. Or if the mage says "I want to cast Mage Armor again now so the current doesn't run out during combat". Actually, there will probably never be a need especially if we have custom quick lists - just add a new torch or Mage Armor with the flick of a wrist.

If it is easy to implement, put it in. If it is a hassle, don't bother.

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Post by dorpond »

Steel Rat wrote:I could see a reason why you might need to. you have a magical light source to a person with magic suppressive abilities, either voluntary or not, might reduce the duration/effectiveness of the magic.


Very good point Steel!

Antimagic field is a great example of that! Actually time still does count down; the ability is just suppressed or not functioning at the moment. Anti-magic wouldn't be a good example of this then..

Steel, are there effects that take away the duration of a spell, condition or effect? I can't think of any at the moment.

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Post by jay »

dorpond wrote:
jay wrote:You wouldn't want to change the expiration time on it though, would you? You would want it to stay the same, even thought it is now owned by a separate creature.


I would say that most of the time, we won't need to change the expiration time.

The only way I can forsee it possibly happening is when the player says "When that torch runs out, I want to start another". We could just up the time on it or reset it. Or if the mage says "I want to cast Mage Armor again now so the current doesn't run out during combat". Actually, there will probably never be a need especially if we have custom quick lists - just add a new torch or Mage Armor with the flick of a wrist.

If it is easy to implement, put it in. If it is a hassle, don't bother.


I was actually thinking more about where in the round it expires. Bless expires on the initiative of the cleric that cast it, not on the initiative of the creature that is blessed. This would apply to things that were moved. If the torch was lit on init 5, it should die on init 5 as well.

As a GM there would always be a need to change both the duration in rounds and the initiative when the round counter decrements.

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Post by Steel Rat »

dorpond wrote:Very good point Steel!

Antimagic field is a great example of that! Actually time still does count down; the ability is just suppressed or not functioning at the moment. Anti-magic wouldn't be a good example of this then..

Steel, are there effects that take away the duration of a spell, condition or effect? I can't think of any at the moment.


Depends on the game system many times. Some have magic as something that takes away health or fatigue points, so if you are fatigued more than you should be the spell may not last as long. You have to look at it more generically. If you can even remotely think of a reason for it happening.

But then again you need the 80/20 rule in effect. Level of effort vs actual need.
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Post by dorpond »

jay wrote:I was actually thinking more about where in the round it expires.


Ah yes; I didn't think of that. That is where it get crazy I guess.

Well by the rules, spells and such like that need to be tracked when the caster cast it. Maybe you will need to attach a behind the scenes tag of who cast it and the rounds will be based off that somehow. When you move the condition, the tag moves with it..

Hmm, sounds like fun to program :shock:

:)

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Post by Azhrei »

jay wrote:This would work fine in list mode, but not as well in table mode since the columns in the table won't mean anything for the alarms. That is why I was trying to make it be the tooltip for the item. I guess I could set it up so only the alarm column expanded, but it could still get messy. Guess we'll just have to try it and see what we all like :)

Tooltips can't be captured using Ctrl-C to copy them to the clipboard. Right now, I will often call up the conditions applied to a creature (in DM Genie) and copy them to an RTF-based "recap" of the game session. It helps remind me what happened during the encounter, but I can review it at the beginning of the next session. I wouldn't be able to do this if they were all tooltips.

I like dorpond's idea of a collapsible tree structure... Particularly if I can select the top-level element and use Ctrl-C to put a text-based version into the clipboard for later retrieval.

dorpond wrote:Well by the rules, spells and such like that need to be tracked when the caster cast it. Maybe you will need to attach a behind the scenes tag of who cast it and the rounds will be based off that somehow. When you move the condition, the tag moves with it...

Actually, since the duration is known at the time of casting, the absolute time of expiration can be recorded and used to determine when the condition should be removed.

So an effect that lasts 5 rounds from Init 10 in Round 2 would last until Init 10 in Round 7. Once that timestamp is recorded, it doesn't matter what the spellcaster does, which includes dying. :)

Effects that last for "Concentration + 1 rd/level, up to 10 rounds" might be a problem. Let's say the effect begins at Init 10 on Round 2. Later, on Round 4 at Init 2 the spellcaster stops concentrating (he changed Init by delaying or readying). Does the spell end at 1 rd/level from Init 2 or from Init 10? And the duration limit of 10 rounds should apply to 10 rounds from Init 10 on Round 2, right?

Hmm, tricky, tricky. Probably better to implement the easy stuff first. :)

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Post by jay »

Azhrei wrote:Tooltips can't be captured using Ctrl-C to copy them to the clipboard. Right now, I will often call up the conditions applied to a creature (in DM Genie) and copy them to an RTF-based "recap" of the game session. It helps remind me what happened during the encounter, but I can review it at the beginning of the next session. I wouldn't be able to do this if they were all tooltips.

I could make Ctrl-C capture the stuff I put into the tool tip. It will be html so that I can add some structure to it, but all of the info should be in there.

Azhrei wrote:I like dorpond's idea of a collapsible tree structure... Particularly if I can select the top-level element and use Ctrl-C to put a text-based version into the clipboard for later retrieval.

I am worried about this taking up so much space that you will only be able to see one creature at a time. The +/- is a good idea, but if you have to go to the creature and press a button to see it, then it doesn't seem that much better than the tooltip. Also, all of the timers will be viewable and editable from the Edit Item screen. You can access this screen with a double click. This isn't all that different from selecting the +/- either.

So most likely I will add the multiple timer support first, then give everybody a chance to try it. I'll then add the tooltips and then the expand collapse if they are needed.
Azhrei wrote:Actually, since the duration is known at the time of casting, the absolute time of expiration can be recorded and used to determine when the condition should be removed.

So an effect that lasts 5 rounds from Init 10 in Round 2 would last until Init 10 in Round 7. Once that timestamp is recorded, it doesn't matter what the spellcaster does, which includes dying. :)

That is actually the way it is done internally. It just seemed better to display it as a countdown to expiration since that is always how it was needed during play.

Azhrei wrote:Effects that last for "Concentration + 1 rd/level, up to 10 rounds" might be a problem. Let's say the effect begins at Init 10 on Round 2. Later, on Round 4 at Init 2 the spellcaster stops concentrating (he changed Init by delaying or readying). Does the spell end at 1 rd/level from Init 2 or from Init 10? And the duration limit of 10 rounds should apply to 10 rounds from Init 10 on Round 2, right?

Hmm, tricky, tricky. Probably better to implement the easy stuff first. :)

The GM will have to make the change in both duration and initiative. So actually this turns out to be pretty easy for me :wink:

I plan to implement this by extending the spell timer so that it can be associated with multiple creatures. When the spell timer expires, It'll expirce for all of the associated creatures at the same time. If something like dispel magic removes the spell from a creature, the GM can edit that creature to remove the timer. If the GM removes the actual spell timer, it will be removed from all of the associated creatures. I didn't want to remove anything automatically since I wanted to make sure that the GM knows it has expired.

I'll also allow multiple timers that are not from a spell timer to be added to the creatures directly. They won't show up in the overall encounter, just in the data for the creatures. This should allow for most of those odd cases that seem to come up every so often. I'll make it so that they can be associated with any initiative, not just the player's initiative as it is now.

Does this implementation sound like it will cover everything. Or am I missing something?

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